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gospelmap 
Newbie
Joined: 08 December 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 25
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 Posted: 17 December 2005 at 7:38am |
[QUOTE=pauline35]Dear Gospelmap,
Thank you for sharing the moment about Jesus. However, about the people whom written the Bible is kind of unconvincing and confusing because to Christian, the Bible was written by Prophets, messengers, apostles etc and that means many people had poured out their views and opinions into one bible. That also means that the bible was not word god alone but word of many selected people mostly Jews.
dear pauline.greetings.thankyou for the response.I appreciate your criticism and take it as a honest remarks to move towards truth. I am sure we are not moving towards a christian versus muslim debate since it accomplishes nothing.so my answers will be more driven towards enocountering God whom we love so dearly. At the same time we must know God too loves us and reveals himself to us in a way that is unique.lets be open to that unique experience with him.
The bible surely is written by human hands using human language to the human beings but the content and solution for that particular context came from God.
Above all you must understand that no prophecy of scripture came about by prophets own interpretaion ,for prophecy never had its origin in the will of man but men spoke as they were carried along by the holy spirit(2pet1:20-21)
This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. (1 Co 2:11-13)
I want you to know ,brothers ,that the gospel I preached is not something man made up .I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it ;rather ,I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.(Gal 1:11-12).
..Bring when thou comest, and the books, especially the parchments(1tim 4:13)
Qur�an too was written down by memorizing (using human mind), written by scribes(by human hands)down over a period of more than 23 years, even though the revelation is claimed to be from Gabriel. Human (scribes) hands ,human materials used for writing (like bones ,skins ,pots etc)and their minds(memory) were also involved in the writings. Now this is not to say that this is wrong thing but to say that for communicating to human beings -human appratus is a necessity even though the content comes from God.
The prophet said: 'Call Zaid for me and let him bring the board, the ink pot and the scapula bone.' Then he said: 'Write: Not equal are those believers...'" (Bukhari,VI, No.512)
Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect it (in one manuscript)'...So I started locating the Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leafstalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who know it by heart)... ((Bukhari 6.201)
we also see muhammed defending in his context against the criticism that he has written things from the Devil .The point is it is said in context of a particular problem that arose.
Sura 81:22-25 says, "No, your compatriot [Muhammad] is not mad. He saw him [Gabriel] on the clear horizon. He does not grudge the secrets of the unseen, nor is this the utterance of an accursed devil."
Sura 69:41, 42 say, "It [the Quran] is no poet's speech: scant is your faith! It is no soothsayer's divination: how little you reflect! It is revelation from the Lord of the Universe
Here Muhammad is saying to his critics that he really saw an angel, and his words are not from a devil, or from his own imagination. No doubt the people living at that time thought he was inspired by a devil, so Muhammad spoke these words, as the Quran, in self-defense.The bible too speaks from its context adressing diffrent issues of life through actual events.
Now you said that since many prophets and messengers wrote it ,it will create confusion and can add anything they want.well thats not true as seen from above point that they were under the inspiritaion of the holy spirit and not through their own words.
Above all you must understand that no prophecy of scripture came about by prophets own interpretaion ,for prophecy never had its origin in the will of man but men spoke as they were carried along by the holy spirit(2pet1:20-21),
But the opposite maybe true about quran because it was written by one man ,thus there can arose to human mind about the authenticity of its revelation as it has no witnesses. It has to be just believed what one man has to say. The bible had many witnesses of the events to corroborate and record. It is not a one man revelation like that of Qur�an.Just like you said that it was written in Jewish context the quran too is written in arabic context.How do we know what muhammed saw ? no one can know it.even hafsha his wife could not see when muhammed came to her telling about the things he was seeing was from God or satan.
According to another biography, Ibn Hisham, Khadija decided to test the spirit:
"Would you please tell me when the spirit comes to you? When Muhammad told her of the spirit's arrival Khadija said, 'Muhammad sit on my left thigh.' Muhammad sat on her left thigh. 'Do you see the spirit?' she asked. 'yes.' 'Then sit on my right thigh.' Muhammad sat on her right thigh. 'Do you see the spirit?' 'yes,' he answered. 'Then sit on my lap.' Muhammad sat on her lap. 'Do you see the spirit?' she asked. 'yes,' he answered. Khadija uncovered a feminine part of her body while Muhammad was sitting on her lap. 'Do you see the spirit?' 'no,' he answered. Then Khadija said, 'Muhammad, that spirit is an angel, not a devil.'" (Hisham, Vol. 2, pp.74-75)
The bible on the other side is more on the side of authenticated and reliable history.Any book to be God's book need to be historically reliable otherwise it becomes a mere story book or claim or myth .
:That which we have heard,which we have seen with our eyes ,which we have looked at and our hands have touched-this we proclaim concerning the word of life,the word appeared and we have seen it and testify to it and we proclaim to you eternal life(i john1:1-3)
Therefore ,since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning,it seemed good to me to write in orderly account for you most excellent theophilus.(luke1:3-4)
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gospelmap
Newbie
Joined: 08 December 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 25
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Posted: 17 December 2005 at 8:06am |
 pauline35 wrote:
Dear Gospelmap,
This is not conducive as it leads to many different churches like angelican, methodist, baptism etc. Especially angelican church, did Jesus ever said God allows the marriage of gays and lesbians? Why Christian think Jesus is God? I don't think God will ever reveals himself in the form of a human. If Jesus is God, and God is Jews, then this is not a religion for Asian as asians are not Jews.
Then Jesus is only God for the Jews.
Just my opinions. |
Second response :
Well we as christians all agree on the major but differ on minors due to interpretations that we have,hence the bible is not wrong but human interpretations surely are.we see that too among muslim community be it the sunnis or shiates for who the succesor was or nation of Islam , Ahamadiyyas, Qadariyya, Tijaniyya sufism,Wahhabism After these, there are numerous splinter groups which are often named after the individual scholars who began them: Hanifa, after Abu Hanifa; Maliki, after Malik ibn Anas; Shafi'i, after Muhammad ibn Idris al-Shafi'i; Zaydi, after Zayd ibn Ali; the Nusayri, Ismaili, Murji'ah, etc.
"The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the [sic] which we have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which we enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them..." (Sura 42:13)
So you see even after the quran commands there are still disobidience within the muslim community, there are also disobidience among christian community even when the bible condemns homosexuality,lesbianism,killings etc.so the bible is not wrong here but the people who disobey them surely are.
God can come in human form because we all are made in his image (divine character and nature ) as pointed in my response to maryga.hence there is nothing wrong for God to come in our likeness even though he is not like us.God is not like us but we are like him not in power and infinity but in his image.so he can surely come because he loves you and me with a special purpose.
Finally Jesus in his human nature came as a jew but in his divine nature he is God and not belonging to specific community alone.since Jesus is God he is for all and that is why he said
Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.(John 3:16)
Jesus loves you dear pauline so that you can have a wonderful relationship and eternal life in heaven through him.
Edited by gospelmap
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herjihad
Senior Member
Joined: 26 January 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2473
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Posted: 17 December 2005 at 11:23am |
Bismillah,
Allah, SWT, created the earth and all that is in it, including our beloved prophet Jesus, Issa. As he created Adam from clay, he created Issa without a physical father.
Allah, The All-Powerful, The All-Merciful, does not require a human sacrifice, which is a pagan idea for those who don't believe in the Mercy of God, in order to forgive our sins.
The story of Ibrahim in which Allah, SWT, illustrated to him and all people that while we need to be willing to sacrifice anything Allah, SWT, says, HE WILL NEVER REQUIRE A HUMAN BLOOD SACRIFICE IN ORDER TO FORGIVE OUR SINS OR FOR ANY OTHER REASON.
How can you look at this pagan sacrifice as merciful and forgiving when it is barbaric and cruel and unjust? Muslims just have it so much easier than anybody else. God doesn't require us to sacrifice or bear more than we can. He doesn't make us go and confess to a human. He accepts our Tawba, repentence, directly as long as we are sincere.
Anybody who thinks it's okay that you can do anything the rest of your life because somebody else will bear the burden of YOUR SIN, is deluded. The devil is whispering in your ear to sin and continue and not to be afraid, because of this mistaken idea that you are forgiven, WHEN YOU ARE NOT! You are sinning big time by giving our Glorious Lord a partner and/or child.
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Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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AhmedNagi
Groupie
Joined: 18 November 2005
Location: Egypt
Status: Offline
Points: 42
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Posted: 17 December 2005 at 2:25pm |
Al Salamu Alaykum Wa Rahamtu Allahi Wa Barakatuh.
Dear Gospelmap,
Luke says in his prologue to Theophilus: 'Inasmuch as many have undertaken a narrative of the things which have been accomplished among us, just as they were delivered to us by those who from the beginning were the eyewitnesses and ministers of the word, it seemed good to me also, having informed myself about all things from their beginnings, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, that you may know the truth concerning things of which you have been informed.'
This is a straight forward confession that Luke didnt witness the events he describes in his Gospel. So who are the witness he got his information from? How can we trust his power of judging the people he asked if we don't even know their names or their backgrounds? He says 'it seemed good to me..'. This means he was acting according to his judgement and not God's guidance; because if that was the case, then any holy Christian priest or Pope is guided by God; which in turn means that the Crusades were good. Something i highly doubt. This is a very relative issue. Who is endowed with enough wisdom to judge that someone is guided by God while the other is just claiming it?
It is true that we should not judge a faith through the acts of its followers. On the contrary, we should look at the source - the scriptures. To me God's message is divine. This fact comes for granted with the belief in God's perfection. Now I have two books claiming that they are the message of God: the Bible and the Quran. One is full of scientific contradictions, let alone contradictions within itself (non of which were answered back by the most knowledgeable evangelists), whilst the other is flawless, let alone reveals alot of scientific facts centuries before man was able to discover their truths. Which, logically should I follow? If you would like I can list many of the Bible's contradictions and many of the Quranic scientific miracles for you. If the witnesses that wrote down the Bible contradicted on some of the points (which are many), then some of these versions have to be wrong. And if we have limited knowledge to assess some of the verses, and we discover errors in them, then how can we prove that the rest is true if we don't have the knowledge or the tools to assess it?
Now i give you another question: what would stop a man from converting into Christainity and doing all the crimes he wishes to knowing that Jesus washed his sins away? One can still love God and sin. Here is where Islam serves man justice. If a person sins, and repents, Allah shall forgive him because He is merciful. If he doesnt, Allah shall punish him justly, and then put him in heaven if he deserves it. Maybe someone has been good enough during his life to go straight to heaven without being punished beforehand to wash away his sins. But no where in Islam does anyone carry the burden of another person's sins. This is true mercy and justice.
I am not being defensive here, but I say this as advice:
Before spreading a message, please research it very well, know it back to front, and know that it is foolproof. Make sure (for your own sake) that you are not misguiding people as a result of hastiness.
Edited by AhmedNagi
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Maryga
Senior Member
Joined: 10 July 2005
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 143
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Posted: 17 December 2005 at 10:24pm |
Gospel Map wrote: maryga greetings.thanks for the response.you are confusing gospelmap and gospelman-maybe some other ID of a person who might have provoked you.In chrsitianity too we dont force anyone. truth needs to be shared and most of the times it pricks.after sharing the message,if a person come forward we too help them to grant them a personal relationship with god that comes through Jesus christ. no one force anyone in religions.bribing in the name of charity is mere allegations that you raised.there are both physical and spriitual needs of a person hence its we cater to them.God has commanded us to be both charitable and spiritual which is a part a our faith.
Whether I call you Gospelman or map, my post is addressed to you and not anyone else. I find your writings very offensive firstly, as I have said before this is an Islamic website and not a Christian website. You guys are preaching at every corner � in the market places screaming �only jesus can save you etc�, knocking on doors of our houses, misusing our Qur�an and now infiltrating Islamic websites. On top of that your red bold is extremely offensive and sickening.
We are more confident than you that we have the truth, that God is the One and Only God, that He was never begotten nor does He beget. Our religion makes complete sense. You demean God by attributing to him a birth from a human being, to have eaten like a human being, to have excreted like a human being, to have troubled a human being in order to come into this earth! How low do you bring God? Yet you think you have the truth. Please keep it to yourself and you can continue screeching at market corners but don�t try your satanic versions upon those who have accepted the truth of Islam.
Unlike many Christians in Islam we do not accept homosexuality, we do not accept alcohol, we don�t believe in exposing our bodies, we don�t believe in gambling and the list goes on. If we sin we know that no one other than the One and Only God can forgive us if we sincerely repent. No ones blood is going to wipe out our sins. This is absolute rubbish to us. Our religion makes complete sense. We don�t go about changing the Word of God to suit the times. We don�t manipulate other people�s holy books to further our cause. We don�t ordain gay priests. We know and believe that the Qur�an is the Word of God and is the absolute truth.
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gospelmap
Newbie
Joined: 08 December 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 25
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Posted: 18 December 2005 at 1:59am |
Maryga wrote:
Gospel Map wrote: maryga greetings.thanks for the response.you are confusing gospelmap and gospelman-maybe some other ID of a person who might have provoked you.In chrsitianity too we dont force anyone. truth needs to be shared and most of the times it pricks.after sharing the message,if a person come forward we too help them to grant them a personal relationship with god that comes through Jesus christ. no one force anyone in religions.bribing in the name of charity is mere allegations that you raised.there are both physical and spriitual needs of a person hence its we cater to them.God has commanded us to be both charitable and spiritual which is a part a our faith.
Whether I call you Gospelman or map, my post is addressed to you and not anyone else. I find your writings very offensive firstly, as I have said before this is an Islamic website and not a Christian website. You guys are preaching at every corner � in the market places screaming �only jesus can save you etc�, knocking on doors of our houses, misusing our Qur�an and now infiltrating Islamic websites. On top of that your red bold is extremely offensive and sickening.
We are more confident than you that we have the truth, that God is the One and Only God, that He was never begotten nor does He beget. Our religion makes complete sense. You demean God by attributing to him a birth from a human being, to have eaten like a human being, to have excreted like a human being, to have troubled a human being in order to come into this earth! How low do you bring God? Yet you think you have the truth. Please keep it to yourself and you can continue screeching at market corners but don�t try your satanic versions upon those who have accepted the truth of Islam.
Unlike many Christians in Islam we do not accept homosexuality, we do not accept alcohol, we don�t believe in exposing our bodies, we don�t believe in gambling and the list goes on. If we sin we know that no one other than the One and Only God can forgive us if we sincerely repent. No ones blood is going to wipe out our sins. This is absolute rubbish to us. Our religion makes complete sense. We don�t go about changing the Word of God to suit the times. We don�t manipulate other people�s holy books to further our cause. We don�t ordain gay priests. We know and believe that the Qur�an is the Word of God and is the absolute truth.
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1.Maryga ,greetings.yes truth has to be shared and not kept to self hence you see christians doing that.If color cannot be used here whats the purpose of providing this in first place?.this is a forum were issues are talked,sometimes truth hurts.
2.How is that it deameans God to become human? humans are made in the image of God.Do you think there we are made in some others image other than God? how is that sleeping,excerting,crying,eating,taking birth sinful? does the quran says its sinful to do all that? comeon marga! seondly if Jesus did that he did it in his human nature.
3.who told you we accept homosexuality,gay,alcohol etc? thats rubbish allegations which I can tell also about muslim people and their atrocities, but that does not help because one cannot judge the religion based on the abuse done by some miscreants.the bible condemns alochol,homosexuality etc.
4.All allegation about changng word of God doesnt work.
hence dont be so baised ,you can acutally be missing truth if you do that and also missing the joy that comes through relationship with God through Jesus christ.
please note there are no verses that says the bible is changed in anyway.infact the quran exalts the bible.whatever is talked about the change is against some people who verbally does that .there are no verses that shows the bible is changed in written form.infact the quran says
..�If you are in doubt concerning that we reveal unto thee, then question or ask those who read the book before you (The bible). (Qur�an sura yunus 10:94)
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gospelmap
Newbie
Joined: 08 December 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 25
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Posted: 18 December 2005 at 2:44am |
AhmedNagi wrote:
Al Salamu Alaykum Wa Rahamtu Allahi Wa Barakatuh.
Dear Gospelmap,
Luke says in his prologue to Theophilus: 'Inasmuch as many have undertaken a narrative of the things which have been accomplished among us, just as they were delivered to us by those who from the beginning were the eyewitnesses and ministers of the word, it seemed good to me also, having informed myself about all things from their beginnings, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, that you may know the truth concerning things of which you have been informed.'
This is a straight forward confession that Luke didnt witness the events he describes in his Gospel. So who are the witness he got his information from? How can we trust his power of judging the people he asked if we don't even know their names or their backgrounds? He says 'it seemed good to me..'. This means he was acting according to his judgement and not God's guidance; because if that was the case, then any holy Christian priest or Pope is guided by God; which in turn means that the Crusades were good. Something i highly doubt. This is a very relative issue. Who is endowed with enough wisdom to judge that someone is guided by God while the other is just claiming it?
Greeintgs ahmad. good observation indeed. Revelation from God is not just seeing a vision but it also comes through writing the truth.if vision is the only way that a book be called God's word then there are many people who had visions like nostradamus , prophets (false ones), witchcrafts,visions occuring during demon possesion, physciatric illusions ,joseph smiths mormonism etc are they all God's word just because there is a revelation? some from the above list even tells that their visions are from God. Claiming that the only authentic and reliable way of revelation is like that of Qur�an is limiting God�s way of revealing things to mankind. why do you think that is the only way God has to reveal things? Look at the hadith�s .,which are traditions of Muhammad�s words and actions which are not found in Qur�an but are a a source of authority in Islamic lawmaking. Why is it considered as authoritative when its writings and revelations are not like Qur�an?. the Taurat (first five books) and Zabu r(psalms), though both are revered as equally inspired revelations by all Muslims. Muslims believe that Moses wrote the Taurat and David the Zabuur. However, neither claimed to have received their revelations by a means of a nazil ('sent down') transmission.Luke shows how careful he was in investigating the matter from the first hand eye witnesses in absence of him being the disciple among the twelve. his information came from the relaible disciples of Jesus christ.his witness was also Mary the mother of Jesus.popes and priest cannot write another bible because the events of Jesus christ life has been passed in the first century and luke being in first century was a relaible witness because he was with the disciples of Lord Jesus christ.
It is true that we should not judge a faith through the acts of its followers. On the contrary, we should look at the source - the scriptures. To me God's message is divine. This fact comes for granted with the belief in God's perfection. Now I have two books claiming that they are the message of God: the Bible and the Quran. One is full of scientific contradictions, let alone contradictions within itself (non of which were answered back by the most knowledgeable evangelists), whilst the other is flawless, let alone reveals alot of scientific facts centuries before man was able to discover their truths. Which, logically should I follow? If you would like I can list many of the Bible's contradictions and many of the Quranic scientific miracles for you. If the witnesses that wrote down the Bible contradicted on some of the points (which are many), then some of these versions have to be wrong. And if we have limited knowledge to assess some of the verses, and we discover errors in them, then how can we prove that the rest is true if we don't have the knowledge or the tools to assess it?
These are mere allegations which has never been proven right from the beginning of many debates.secondly discovering scientific facts (which the bible also discovers) does not show in anyway its the word of God.Can scientific books which discovers many things about life -claims itself as word of God?. the obvious answer is NO.
Now i give you another question: what would stop a man from converting into Christainity and doing all the crimes he wishes to knowing that Jesus washed his sins away? One can still love God and sin. Here is where Islam serves man justice. If a person sins, and repents, Allah shall forgive him because He is merciful. If he doesnt, Allah shall punish him justly, and then put him in heaven if he deserves it. Maybe someone has been good enough during his life to go straight to heaven without being punished beforehand to wash away his sins. But no where in Islam does anyone carry the burden of another person's sins. This is true mercy and justice.
When a man comes to christ in repentance he is called to live a holy life. If he can sin freely as you allege then you will find all christians looting,killing, raping,terrorising,chopping off heads, bomb blasting,dismantling buildings through hijacking planes etc. you can see from the rise of christinity came hospitals,orphanages,scientific discoveries ,schools,colleges,universities,helping Aid missions,literatures etc there were abuses too but not commanded by the scripture to terrorise people.hence those who sinned went against the scripture.
secondly when you say allah forgives sins without dealing with it then he merely remains merciful and not Just.but if you say that he will punish people them we all are condemned because we all are sinners.the wages of sin is death and seperation from God.he decides that punishment not we according to our convinience.But God is loving too and merciful hence we see he takes that punishment since we cannot pay that price.he gives us an escape route to be saved.he deals with sin and expresss his love.
thirdly its a gross misunderstanding that a person who thinks that if one person repents in islam he will not sin.infact even after repentance he find himself sinning.then since allah is merciful he thinks he will be forgiven and hece can go on with life.so in both cases the problem of sinning arises.
I am not being defensive here, but I say this as advice:
Before spreading a message, please research it very well, know it back to front, and know that it is foolproof. Make sure (for your own sake) that you are not misguiding people as a result of hastiness.
have researched very much and pray that God will guide you too. |
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pauline35
Senior Member
Joined: 15 November 2005
Location: Malaysia
Status: Offline
Points: 459
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Posted: 18 December 2005 at 7:56am |
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Dear Gospelmap,
I really believe that Jesus loves me now and that Jesus too, loves you as much as he loves me and that is why we are (as we are both non-muslims) here in this Islam forum to find out the truth about his teachings.
Mr. Gospelmap, it is rather rude of you for putting down Islam's teachings right before all of these Islam scholars. It is not at all that you believe in Christian but it is that you are here to condemn the teaching of Islam through a hypocrite attitude. Didn't you see yourself as cunning as the willy old fox?
It is pathetic for an evangelism Christian to be acting in such a manner in order to convince others to believe in what he believes.
You can't force other to believe in what you believe as the Buddha once said: Those who condemn about other religion are injuring their own religion. This is so true that it is what you are doing to Christianity.
Perhaps, you need to open your eyes to see yourself in a mirror and ask yourself "What do you see in the mirror?". YOU or JESUS or MUHAMMAD or THE WILLY OLD FOX?
What is your purpose to attack Muslim's teachings in such a discourteous manner? What do you gain from this? HAPPY, JUSTIFIED OR MISERABLE.
These are the basic psychological evaluation that you needed to evaluate upon your discourteous and rude attitude.
On the teachings of Christian, I am well-equipped with knowledge and wisdom but I humbly do not reveal it as it is my weapon of knowledge.
Judging from your preaching and speeches, I could only say you are wasting your energy in this forum.
May all of these scholars forgive you and your sins. May Jesus guide you to the right path and to the right GOD.
I am curious about your Sunday's confessions, looks like you need to do more confession coming this Sunday. What would you be telling the Father this coming Sunday? Will you tell him that you have condemned the teachings of Islam? Is this what you have learned in Christianity ie. to condemn Islam and be glorious through this attack?
May all of you, Ladies and Gentlemen, Sisters and Brothers forgive this immature learner and allow him to state his mind in this forum but do not reply at all as this leads us to no-where.
We are here to discuss and learn about Islam and not about Christianity. Only the oneness God will know best.
P/s: BTW, it is not concident that you and I are here in this Islam forum, perhaps it was a message from Jesus that this is the right religion for both of us to embrace. God knows what you want in life and he led you here. So be grateful for what you have received from this forum.
Edited by pauline35
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