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Who is Jesus?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gospelmap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2005 at 12:14am
Originally posted by sufi_observer sufi_observer wrote:

The word in 19:19 is "zakiiya," which means "pure" or "purified." It is also used to describe the youth in 18:74, where there is clearly no implication of sinlessness. This argument is invalid.

dear friend sufi

w(v[30]);Quran.nu

(The angel) said: "I am only a Messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a righteous son."
w(v[32]);Pickthall

He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

w(v[33]);Yusuf Ali

He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.


From dictionary.sakhr.com


incorruptible ; virtuous ; righteous ; cleanhanded ; blameless ; celibate ; white ; immaculate ; incorrupt ; innocent ; inculpable ; evenhanded ; good ; chaste


near synonyms to sinless (�������� )

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gospelmap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2005 at 12:24am
Originally posted by freebird freebird wrote:

Originally posted by gospelmap gospelmap wrote:

Jesus is called The sinless one (surah 19:19), The anointed one (Al masiha) , the word of God (kalimatullah) and the spirit of God (Ruhuallah) (Surah 4:171;surah 3:45 ; surah 5:109) .

 

This title is not applied to any messenger, prophets and  not even to muhammed. What does that tells of Jesus?

We are as muslims are trained to respect the messengers as human with missions and we don't make them more than the simple explanation that there is no distinction between them.

 

You should not muddy for something that is clear which I am afraid it will make it muddier - and you will regret this. I believe we better leave him as he is - as a unique person for you.

 

Just know the messengers as they are - as we were tought and don't push it beyond that, unless of course if you want it to.

Dear friend freebird

ASW

I dont think its sound that  simple , neither it appears so.But I would suggest you to have your own study of these term and ask god to show you its meaning hidden.this word is also used in Judaism and christianity (the bible) referring to divinity.In Surah 58.22 where we read that God strengthens true believers with "a spirit from him". The Muslim translator Yusuf Ali appends the following comment to this verse:

Here we learn that all good and righteous men are strengthened by God with the holy spirit. If anything the phrase used here is stronger, "a spirit from Himself". Whenever anyone offers his heart in faith and purity to God, God accepts it, engraves that Faith on the seeker's heart, and further fortifies him with the divine spirit which we can no more define adequately than we can define in human language the nature and attributes of God. (Yusuf Ali, The Holy Qur'an, p. 1518).


This is a remarkable comment which clearly contains a veiled implication that the ruhun minhu is the very Spirit of the living God, uncreated and eternal in essence. Yusuf Ali says it is "the divine spirit" and that it is as incomprehensible as God himself. The language he uses is unambiguous - the Spirit from God is clearly believed by him to be from the realm of deity and not from the created order.

Now this is the very title that the Qur'an gives to Jesus in Surah 4.171. The exact same words are used - he is the ruhun minhu, "a Spirit from God". If we merely apply Yusuf Ali's interpretation of the expression in Surah 58.22 to the very same expression given as a title to Jesus in Surah 4.171, we can only conclude that Jesus is the "divine spirit".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2005 at 1:00am
Sufi_Observer - thank you for the clarification of 9:19

In Gospelmap's latest post he graciously argues against his own point by
demonstrating how translation can affect understanding. What is
interesting to me, however, is that all three of his (her?) examples
reference God providing a son. There is no translational difference there.

Can you (or anyone) provide more information about the Arabic word and
how the ulema has traditionally taught these verses?

One of the richest Christian understandings of the Father/Son
relationship is that of a king to a prince. We view God as the creator of all
(including Jesus), who eventually turns over control of his creation to the
Christ. Maybe understanding the Arabic can help us move this discussion
past religion 101.
Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gospelmap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2005 at 11:58pm
Originally posted by sufi_observer sufi_observer wrote:

The word in 19:19 is "zakiiya," which means "pure" or "purified." It is also used to describe the youth in 18:74, where there is clearly no implication of sinlessness. This argument is invalid.

The angle said to Mary in the Quran: � I am only a messenger of thy Lord that I may bestow an thee a faultless son. � Sura 19:19�

 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.(Isaiah 9:6)

Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.(John 3:16)

No other prophet or person was born from a virgin, and was without sin except Jesus according to both the Quran and the Bible.

the new Testament, we can read about the sinless life of Jesus in the following verses:

�He committed no sin, � 1Peter 2: 22

�He knew no sin, � II Corinthians 5: 21

� In Him there is no sin, � I John 3:5

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2005 at 9:56am

O my dear brother gospelmap, thanks for your replies. Your replies indeed strengthen my hypothesis that most of my Christian brothers don't know about the historicity of their own Bible. This is not to discourage you as what you believe, but to make you aware of as what you quote so generously from all over the Bible, especially the NT. Nevertheless, here is my humble response to your quotes from the Bible.

1. You quoted (John 10:31-33), but point to be noted here is that its not what Jesus said, but what others understood of him. In either case, this parable "Father and I are one." is commonly understood that "Father and my message" is one, especially in the context of Prophethood of Jesus. Hence, whatever he says, is from God and not from himself. This is quite frequently found in Ahadith literature of Prophet Mohammad. This is why Sunnah of Prophet Mohammad is so important for us, even then we never ascribe any divinity to Prophet Mohammad.

2. John 5:18 has also the same explanation as presented above.

3. In  (John 14:9)  , typically people were asking him to show them the God. Is this not a silly question from a Prophet, especially once they new that it was written that no one has seen the God. How can any sane person than ask to show them the God? The best answer to this silly question, again in the context of Prophethood of Jesus, that for all practical purposes, he is the representative of God on earth. So, in that sense this passage can easily be explained that anyone who obeys Jesus, obeys God. In the same token anyone who has seen Jesus, has seen the God. No divinity needed for this simple understanding. Isn't it?

4. Your evidence from John 8:56-59 to show any divinity of Jesus is not comprehensively understood. Especially how come all lowered Greek words 'ego eimi', " can be translated as all capital (I AM)? Is their any rules capitalizing Greek words during translation to english words?? I don't know. Secondly, it is also intersting to know that Jesus used to speak Greek language and not the Aramaic. Are you sure of this?? 

5. Your reference from Rev 1:17-18 can be anything but to show that Jesus has any divinity especially once the statement says "....and I was dead..." Also, probably, you would also like to tell us the author of this book Revelations and his relationship with Jesus to put such words in his mouth?

6. Similarly your reference to "(Mark 14:61-63)" is seen more off the mark especially once the sentence says ".....see the Son of man.....". On an interesting note, again, who is using this capital "S" for son during the translation from Greek to English? Also, this time the words "Jesus said, "I am"" are not capitalized. Is there any specific reason for such translations?

Now when you quote "1.Phil. 2:5-8" it is here when my objection to what is commonly called as "Pauline Christianity" begins. Nevertheless, is there any physical association of St. Paul with Physical Jesus? Only my Christian brothers would tell as how?

 

On more important issue than above, I am still awaiting your response to the last part of my post where I said "clearly know that our God is just one and only one. Isn't it written in the famous 10 commandments of OT and thus known to my Jewish brother as well? Don't you agree with me on this? So, let us focus on this what is clearly known, beyond doubt, and leave things to God which we are made to believe to understand through human philosophy, developed through un-clear verses, may it in Quran or in Bible.

 

 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gospelmap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2005 at 10:52am
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:

O my dear brother gospelmap, thanks for your replies. ..................On more important issue than above, I am still awaiting your response to the last part of my post where I said "clearly know that our God is just one and only one. Isn't it written in the famous 10 commandments of OT and thus known to my Jewish brother as well? Don't you agree with me on this? So, let us focus on this what is clearly known, beyond doubt, and leave things to God which we are made to believe to understand through human philosophy, developed through un-clear verses, may it in Quran or in Bible.

Dear freind

Ok now let me answere your second question before I take on again the first.

Should I appeal to groups like nations of islam ,ahamadiyyas,bahai ?etc.you may very well give the reasons against their understanding about Quran just like we give about our jewish brothers.hence the point is they are not our authority.we need to look in the scriptures for our search for God .ok now about your question of one God.

There are 9 different Hebrew words, which can be translated as "one" at times. They are ish, ishah, nephesh, yachid, almoni, echad, gam, badad, and chad. Lets focus on two particular words. The word "yachid" means an absolute or solitary one.This word is never applied to God because "Elohim conveys both the unity of the one God, and yet allows for the plurality of Divine Persons .hence the word used is echad .Echad "STRESSES UNITY, WHILE RECOGNIZING DIVERSITY WITHIN THAT ONENESS" .

When we turn to the Old Testament, what do we find? The writers of the Old Testament never applied yachid to God. God is never described as a solitary person.

 Isaiah 6:8-"Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, 'Whom shall I send, and who will go for US?'".

Let US make man in our image in our likeness (Gen1:26)

The singular "I' and the plural "us" shows the plurality (us)

So you see trinity is also seen in the old testament but not perceived by the jews fully .but for a Christian its not  hard to understand the above verses , the words Elohim and  echad ,because of  God�s revelation  during the new testament period in Christ Jesus.

The doctrine of the Trinity is that there is one God who exists in three persons:  Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  Each person is not the same as the other person; that is, the Father is not the same person as the Son who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit.  Each is fully God in nature.  Each person is not a god in itself.  Instead, the totality of all three persons comprises the one God.  There are not three gods or tritheism, but one in substance or essence and not oneness of persons since God is a spirit.We believe there are no partners with God because we believe there is only one (ecchad) God in all existence. Again note that the word person is used to explain that God is not a nonpersonal power which is abstract in nature but one who hears ,answers and understands us etc

 

.

the doctrine of the plurality in the One Godhead is found in many intriguing passages in the OT including Gen 1:27-28, Gen 11:5-8, Gen 18:1-15, Ps 2:4-12, Ps 110:1, Prov 30:4, Is 6:8, Is 48:16, Dan 7:13 etc). These and other passages reveal a complexity to God, that was veiled in the OT but was made explicitly in the NT with the coming of Christ.

 

 

other

 

 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gospelmap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2005 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:

O my dear brother gospelmap, thanks for your replies. Your replies indeed strengthen my hypothesis that most of my Christian brothers don't know about the historicity of their own Bible. This is not to discourage you as what you believe, but to make you aware of as what you quote so generously from all over the Bible, especially the NT. Nevertheless, here is my humble response to your quotes from the Bible.

dear freind ahamad ,you maybe right about many of my christian brothers same as with many of my muslim friends.hence we agree on it.I have to quote generously from the bible since thats the reliable ,true record  or dairy written by the first hand eye witnesses of the first century as pointed in my earlier response.

1. You quoted (John 10:31-33), but point to be noted here is that its not what Jesus said, but what others understood of him.In either case, this parable "Father and I are one." is commonly understood that "Father and my message" is one, especially in the context of Prophethood of Jesus. Hence, whatever he says, is from God and not from himself. This is quite frequently found in Ahadith literature of Prophet Mohammad. This is why Sunnah of Prophet Mohammad is so important for us, even then we never ascribe any divinity to Prophet Mohammad.

 You are assuming a lot here my freind.please note the entire purpose of the gospel of John is to insist on Jesus divinty as son of God.

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that by believing you may have life in his name (John 20:31)

I and the father are one (John 10:30) .thats the background of the passage.if they understood that way ,then they better understood than us in that context.further Jesus christ could have said "you have not understood me guys.I didnt mean to as God or his son but was merely telling you I and the message is one" but as you read further he clarifies them taking the very old testament verses to proceed from mens  being called as gods to himself  greater than all human being as God's very own son. therefore they became furious in there conversations with Jesus.

Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."(John 10:36-38)

2. John 5:18 has also the same explanation as presented above.

Same is my explanation as above.

3. In  (John 14:9)  , typically people were asking him to show them the God. Is this not a silly question from a Prophet, especially once they new that it was written that no one has seen the God. How can any sane person than ask to show them the God? The best answer to this silly question, again in the context of Prophethood of Jesus, that for all practical purposes, he is the representative of God on earth. So, in that sense this passage can easily be explained that anyone who obeys Jesus, obeys God. In the same token anyone who has seen Jesus, has seen the God. No divinity needed for this simple understanding. Isn't it?

Good try my freind but Not really,again you are assuming a lots of things.Its true we cannot see God but he does reveals himself to us through Jesus  and thats exactly many verses in this book of John tries to explain."And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the : only Son from the Father." John 1:14

In john 14:9 ,Jesus is trying here to convince philip who was asking this real struggling  question raised by all mankind.In other words he was saying to Jesus "show us God we do really want to know him since you claim just now that you are THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE (John 14:6)" let me quote the further verses from here-

9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.(John 14:9-11)

4. Your evidence from John 8:56-59 to show any divinity of Jesus is not comprehensively understood. Especially how come all lowered Greek words 'ego eimi', " can be translated as all capital (I AM)? Is their any rules capitalizing Greek words during translation to english words?? I don't know. Secondly, it is also intersting to know that Jesus used to speak Greek language and not the Aramaic. Are you sure of this?? 

Not all but in this verse he did said I AM.that is the reason they got furious.he was claiming preexistence than abraham and using the word I AM.he claimed that pre-exisistence other time too.The language during Jesus time was hebrew their native language ,Aramic and greek which was the commercial language.but the matter is even if Jesus spoke any one of the languages or all he was claiming divinity.

5. Your reference from Rev 1:17-18 can be anything but to show that Jesus has any divinity especially once the statement says "....and I was dead..." Also, probably, you would also like to tell us the author of this book Revelations and his relationship with Jesus to put such words in his mouth?

The writer of this book is the same person- John the apostle.you can read his own introduction within the book itself..he was the disciple who was closest to Jesus christ.he was the last apostle to die and living almost being very aged.Jesus appeared to him after his (Jesusa) death , resurrection,ascension and again reappeared to him when he(John) was persecuted on the patmos island hence that words-behold I was dead . Jesus GIVES UP HIS LIFE IN HIS INCARNATE FORM WHICH HAD ALL THE LIMITATIONS OF HUMANITY. AS GOD, HE CAN NEVER DIE. AS A HUMAN BEING, HE CAN DIE.

6. Similarly your reference to "(Mark 14:61-63)" is seen more off the mark especially once the sentence says ".....see the Son of man.....". On an interesting note, again, who is using this capital "S" for son during the translation from Greek to English? Also, this time the words "Jesus said, "I am"" are not capitalized. Is there any specific reason for such translations?

The term "son of man "was taken from Daniel 7:13-14 by Jesus to tell about himself as the same divine person mentioned there.the jewish community of his time understood that term better.hence jesus used that term often to claim divinty.In some place Jesus used that word I AM speciafically to claim divinty and other time he was using in normal terms.

Now when you quote "1.Phil. 2:5-8" it is here when my objection to what is commonly called as "Pauline Christianity" begins. Nevertheless, is there any physical association of St. Paul with Physical Jesus? Only my Christian brothers would tell as how?

There are many ways paul is considered to be reliable.as follows:

1.He was with the disciples of his time and learnt all from them.hence the disciples were his source of information.the disciple of Jesus christ-peter affirms the apostleship of paul in his letter

Just as our dear brother paul also wrote  to you with the wisdom that God gave him. he writes the same way �.his letters contain some hard things�which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do with the other scriptures, to their own destruction.(2pet3:15-16)

 

2.Jesus appeared to Paul who was called saul. he was persecuting the chruch and christians before his conversion, was a jewish man, strict follower of the God of israel.what made him to follow christ? -the appearance of Jesus and appointing him as his disciple.(read the full account in Acts 9).hence paul the apostle is just as reliable like the other disciples of christ.if he would have invented anything other than the 12 disciples of christ he would not have been considered by them neither approved.he seems to me more reliable than any person coming 600 years later to talk about christ since paul was in the first century when these were happenings,muhammed was not.

 

God bless you and open your heart now to know Jesus christ the lord and savior for the forgiveness of your sins and to receive eternal life in heaven.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmedNagi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2005 at 9:50am

Al Salamu Alaykum Wa Rahamtu Allahi Wa Barakatuh,

Dear Gospelmap,

   Im ok with the idea that Jesus has never sinned. But I have a question for you: How can i believe that the bible we have represents the true sayings of Jesus? It's full of contradictions and if Jesus never erred then there is no way he contradicted himself or science. Pure and simple.

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