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TG12345 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TG12345 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2014 at 3:49pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

Originally posted by Muslim75 Muslim75 wrote:

Usama was the beloved of Muhammad (saws) and the son of Zaid, the beloved of Muhammad (saws). He fell upon an idolater in battle. Just as he was about to kill him, the unbeliever exclaimed there was only one God, so that he should be spared. But Usama killed him and said to Muhammad (saws) that the unbeliever said it only to be spared. Muhammad (saws) was very angry and told him (famous Hadith):
 
"Did you cleave his heart and see (whether his confession of belief was due to fear of death) ?" And kept repeating it.
 
As you can see, there is no comparison.

I agree, there is no comparison.  A Christian would always want to spare the life of a captured prisoner, regardless of his religion.

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Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

In Islam, love extends only to fellow Muslims.

You are wrong. The Hadith we are talking about applies to all mankind.

Yes I know, but Muhammad's "love" applied only to prisoners who (pretended to) convert.  Otherwise, he was fine with murdering them.

By the way, I am not a Christian.  I just happen to agree with the Christians that true love has to be unconditional.  Conditional love is worthless.  It is nothing more than a bargaining ploy.


Dude, I just wanted to tell you that if one day for some reason you decided to convert, you'd make an awesome Christian. You understand some of Jesus' teachings better than many Christians do. Thanks.
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2014 at 4:37pm
Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:

Dude, I just wanted to tell you that if one day for some reason you decided to convert, you'd make an awesome Christian. You understand some of Jesus' teachings better than many Christians do. Thanks.

Big%20smile Coming from you, that's quite a compliment!

And I was just thinking to myself, TG12345 would make an awesome humanist! Wink


Edited by Ron Webb - 14 September 2014 at 4:38pm
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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islamispeace View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islamispeace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2014 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:


Dude, I just wanted to tell you that if one day for some reason you decided to convert, you'd make an awesome Christian. You understand some of Jesus' teachings better than many Christians do. Thanks.


LOL I think you give Ron too much credit. 

And even if he does "understand some of Jesus' teachings better than many Christians", he certainly does not understand the teachings of Islam, as we see in his latest shenanigans about Muhammad (peace be upon him) allegedly "murdering" prisoners.  The dude is a clown, pure and simple.

And don't worry.  He is not going to convert to Christianity "for some reason", not that you are necessarily urging him to.  After all, you have decided to no longer try to convert people to Christianity.       


Edited by islamispeace - 14 September 2014 at 4:48pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islamispeace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2014 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:

Dude, I just wanted to tell you that if one day for some reason you decided to convert, you'd make an awesome Christian. You understand some of Jesus' teachings better than many Christians do. Thanks.

Big%20smile Coming from you, that's quite a compliment!

And I was just thinking to myself, TG12345 would make an awesome humanist! Wink


Speaking of "humanists", you still haven't answered my question to you about abortion that I posed on another thread a while back.  I know it is unrelated to this thread, but I just thought I would remind you.  Wink
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islamispeace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2014 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:

As much as I love to argue/debate with Islamispeace, he is right when he says that Islam teaches kindness to one's neighbour and permission to wage war in self-defence.

As also Ron Webb correctly pointed out, Jesus took this a step further by not only ordering commanding for neighbours, but also enemies. That is a lot harder to do than loving those who love you and fighting those who hate you... even if it is in self-defence and not offense.

This teaching is one a few reasons why, in spite of the many errors and contradictions that remain in the Bible, I am still a Christian.



This teaching might sound nice, but the problem is that it is completely impractical.  If this teaching was actually practical, then we would have no use of criminal courts and jails.  Because if you are supposed to love someone regardless of the harm they cause you, then theoretically, Christians should not believe in courts and jails.  How can you, if you are supposed to love your enemies?  Would you send someone you "love" to prison for committing a crime against you?  What if someone, God forbid, killed your child?  If the teaching is to be taken literally, are we supposed to "love" that person?  What parent could do that? 


Edited by islamispeace - 14 September 2014 at 4:49pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TG12345 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2014 at 5:26pm
Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:


Dude, I just wanted to tell you that if one day for some reason you decided to convert, you'd make an awesome Christian. You understand some of Jesus' teachings better than many Christians do. Thanks.

Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:


LOL I think you give Ron too much credit. 

Obviously due to Ron's faith status he is not a Christian and I and him probably disagree on very many things. I don't take back though what I said about him understanding some of Jesus' teachings... in the Christian faith, love for all people including enemies is mandatory, not optional. He understands that.  He also understands that unconditional love is far greater than conditional love. Many Christians don't, even if they call themselves Christians.

I believe in giving credit where credit is due. I disagree with you on many things and sometimes you can be very rude when you debate with people whom you disagree with (and before you claim the pot is calling the kettle black I will beat you to it by admitting I have a problem with that too and haven't been too kind to you and Abu Loren when we have clashed)... but you do very good and extensive research, and I commend you for that. That may or  may not be giving you "too much credit", but I couldn't care less.

I will point out the positives I see in people regardless of their faith or whether or not we are on good terms. LOL I think right now I'm on good terms with everyone on the board, we haven't had a good scrap for a while. Wink

Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:


And even if he does "understand some of Jesus' teachings better than many Christians", he certainly does not understand the teachings of Islam, as we see in his latest shenanigans about Muhammad (peace be upon him) allegedly "murdering" prisoners.  The dude is a clown, pure and simple.

Do you mean the mass killings of POWs from the Banu Qurayzah tribe? They were combatants who were taken prisoner after their tribe betrayed the early Muslims and caused a situation that almost caused them to be defeated in battle and possibly massacred or taken into slavery. They weren't "innocent people", but I still have no problem calling their mass execution a form of mass murder of prisoners.

The 250 Syrian soldiers who were marched into the desert by ISIS and executed en-masse, given that they were serving the regime of Bashar Al Assad, were probably not all innocent of war crimes and abuses of civilians. Yet their humiliating march and mass execution by gunfire was a form of murder.

As you are going to say, the prophets in the Bible (assuming they existed and that the Biblical accounts are true... many of them aren't... check out my last comment in our debate on the Pharaoh) not only killed prisoners, but also innocent civilians, including infants. If Muhammad was a murderer for killing his prisoners, they were genocidal maniacs, at least according to the Old Testament accounts, some of which we know are wrong. Unlike in the past, I have no problem anymore with admitting both. Wink


Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:

And don't worry.  He is not going to convert to Christianity "for some reason", not that you are necessarily urging him to.  After all, you have decided to no longer try to convert people to Christianity.       

If he converts, that is his choice.

I'm no longer going to try to convert people, but will continue to be a witness to my faith through how I try to live my life, and will discuss it when appropriate. I will continue to pray for people to become Christian, because quite frankly I believe it is a good thing and it is better than other alternatives. However, I will no longer (probably) go out of my way to try to convert others.

Thanks for not trying to convert me to Islam anymore, though if you chose to I can't even say I would mind. When you come to the same conclusion about your religion that I have reached about mine, you may decide to stop trying to convert people to Islam altogether. Wink

We'll talk more later, probably in a few days, inshAllah.
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2014 at 5:32pm
Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:

This teaching might sound nice, but the problem is that it is completely impractical.  If this teaching was actually practical, then we would have no use of criminal courts and jails.  Because if you are supposed to love someone regardless of the harm they cause you, then theoretically, Christians should not believe in courts and jails.  How can you, if you are supposed to love your enemies?  Would you send someone you "love" to prison for committing a crime against you?  What if someone, God forbid, killed your child?  If the teaching is to be taken literally, are we supposed to "love" that person?  What parent could do that?

It may be the hardest thing anyone could be asked to do, but yes, a true Christian is expected to do exactly that.  And many of them (Christian and otherwise) do.  I have read stories of parents who not only reconciled with the person who killed their child, but have gone on to be friends and have helped the criminal to overcome the sickness that drove him to it.

Thankfully, it is not something I have had to face myself, so it is a bit presumptuous of me to describe the process; but I suppose it starts with recognizing the innate humanity of the killer, understanding his background and the forces that shaped his character and motivated his actions -- in short, putting yourself in his shoes.  There is always an explanation for the crime, however wrongheaded the logic or however narrow the viewpoint or however desperate the circumstances that led to it.  We can feel sorry for a criminal whose worldview has become so distorted that he has (in his mind) no choice but to hurt others.

And yes, we still need courts and jails.  There need to be practical consequences for crimes in order to provide disincentives to potential criminals.  But these consequences should never be outright cruel.  No truly civilized person could support torture or stoning to death, for instance, no matter how repugnant the crime.  Incarceration seems to be as far as progressive societies are willing to go, and it seems to do the job.

Edited by Ron Webb - 14 September 2014 at 5:38pm
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islamispeace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2014 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:

I'm no longer going to try to convert people, but will continue to be a witness to my faith through how I try to live my life, and will discuss it when appropriate. I will continue to pray for people to become Christian, because quite frankly I believe it is a good thing and it is better than other alternatives. However, I will no longer (probably) go out of my way to try to convert others.


So, in other words, you are a walking contradiction is more ways than one.  You are a skeptic and a believer at the same time. Wink   You also wouldn't "probably" go out your way to convert others to Christianity yet you will "pray" that they do.  This is despite the fact that you have clearly said that you would not covert to Islam because of the alleged "errors" and that it would be "illogical" to convert from Christianity to Islam for that reason.   

I just don't know what to say to such blatant contradictions.  The hypocrisy and arrogance are shocking!  Shocked  Such lack of logic is surreal. 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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