IslamiCity.org Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Religion - Islam > Interfaith Dialogue
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - --------------------------------------------------
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


--------------------------------------------------

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 28>
Author
Message
Caringheart View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 March 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 3035
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caringheart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2014 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by Muslim75 Muslim75 wrote:


Ultimately, not all religions can be true. Only one religion is true. It is Islam.

Greetings Muslim75,

Putting aside the issue of what religion is true, we must ask the question, and seriously consider the answer...

What then do you suppose leads another person to lead a life just as righteous even though he 'follows another religion'? 

Why is one persons pious worship not as worthy as another's if they look the same in the fruition thereof... in the way that they live their life?  If they are honest, do not steal, do not cheat, do not kill....?   If they attend to their duties and their worship as diligently as anyone else?
Who are we to say that this worship is not the same to the Creator and just as worthy?   Only the Creator Himself can decide.

We all each believe our religion is true, that's why it's called faith.  What matters is that we give our hearts to something higher than our own desires... that we give our hearts to a guidance that is higher than ourselves... that requires of us, to be better than ourselves, to be better than we would be with no guidance.

Originally posted by Muslim75 Muslim75 wrote:


Originally posted by Caringheart Caringheart wrote:


it's not about Him loving us though
It is.

I disagree... the Creator most naturally will love His creation... what He Himself created...
it is for us to love Him...
it is we, that are given the choice to love, or not love.

Originally posted by Muslim75 Muslim75 wrote:


 It's not comparable in the least. If Jesus said: This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you ; I say that Muhammad (saws) said: No one believes until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself. 
 

I am sorry that you can not see that they are the same.  Muhammad was only repeating what was taught by Yshwe... the Logos... the Wisdom which came before all else.

20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

This is the definition of 'believer'... Muhammad was teaching what Yshwe had taught, just in different wording.

Peace and blessings to you,
Caringheart



Edited by Caringheart - 14 September 2014 at 12:11pm
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
Back to Top
Caringheart View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 March 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 3035
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caringheart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2014 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

Originally posted by Muslim75 Muslim75 wrote:

Allah's Apostle said, "Allah said, 'I will declare war against him who shows hostility to a pious worshipper of Mine.


But Jesus said (in Matthew 5:43-48):
"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Muslim love extends only to fellow Muslims.  As Jesus points out, there is nothing special about that.  Even the pagans love their own people.

Christian love is unconditional and universal, even for those who show hostility toward you.  Christian love is harder, and better.

Thumbs%20Up

Hi Ron,

I have often had to remind myself of those words of Christ...
'if you love those who love you, of what reward is that...'  ... that is easy.
It is easy to love those that love you... those who are the same.... much harder to extend love to the less lovely, but it is Love that saves.  Smile

I think it has even more impact in the King James translation.

43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

asalaam.




Edited by Caringheart - 14 September 2014 at 12:23pm
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
Back to Top
Muslim75 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member

Male
Joined: 06 August 2014
Location: Senegal
Status: Offline
Points: 511
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Muslim75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2014 at 12:44pm

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:


But Jesus said (in Matthew 5:43-48):
"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

 
These are my final responses to your objections, you the Christians.
 
Usama was the beloved of Muhammad (saws) and the son of Zaid, the beloved of Muhammad (saws). He fell upon an idolater in battle. Just as he was about to kill him, the unbeliever exclaimed there was only one God, so that he should be spared. But Usama killed him and said to Muhammad (saws) that the unbeliever said it only to be spared. Muhammad (saws) was very angry and told him (famous Hadith):
 
"Did you cleave his heart and see (whether his confession of belief was due to fear of death) ?" And kept repeating it.
 
As you can see, there is no comparison.
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:


In Islam, love extends only to fellow Muslims. 
You are wrong. The Hadith we are talking about applies to all mankind.

Back to Top
Muslim75 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member

Male
Joined: 06 August 2014
Location: Senegal
Status: Offline
Points: 511
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Muslim75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2014 at 12:56pm
 
Originally posted by Caringheart Caringheart wrote:


I disagree... the Creator most naturally will love His creation... what He Himself created...
it is for us to love Him...
 
The Hadith is not about the love of Allah the Creator for His creation. It is about love. It is about the love between Allah the Creator, and His purified servant.

Originally posted by Caringheart Caringheart wrote:


20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
 
This is about the characteristics of a believer, as mentioned by Jesus according to Christianity.
 
Muhammad (saws) spoke far greater words:
 
By Allah, he does not believe! By Allah, he does not believe! By Allah, he does not believe! It was said, who is that, O Allah's Apostle? He said, that person whose neighbor does not feel safe from his evil.
 
There is no comparison, not in the least.
Back to Top
Caringheart View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 March 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 3035
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caringheart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2014 at 2:36pm
Originally posted by Muslim75 Muslim75 wrote:

Usama was the beloved of Muhammad (saws) and the son of Zaid, the beloved of Muhammad (saws). He fell upon an idolater in battle. Just as he was about to kill him, the unbeliever exclaimed there was only one God, so that he should be spared. But Usama killed him and said to Muhammad (saws) that the unbeliever said it only to be spared. Muhammad (saws) was very angry and told him (famous Hadith)

 
"Did you cleave his heart and see (whether his confession of belief was due to fear of death) ?" And kept repeating it.
 

It is a shame that Muhammad's message was not a consistent one,
but one changing from day to day.

This was a good message... showing that only the Creator has the ability to judge the heart.
asalaam.


Edited by Caringheart - 14 September 2014 at 2:37pm
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
Back to Top
islamispeace View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 2255
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islamispeace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2014 at 3:41pm
Originally posted by Caringheart Caringheart wrote:

Originally posted by Muslim75 Muslim75 wrote:

Usama was the beloved of Muhammad (saws) and the son of Zaid, the beloved of Muhammad (saws). He fell upon an idolater in battle. Just as he was about to kill him, the unbeliever exclaimed there was only one God, so that he should be spared. But Usama killed him and said to Muhammad (saws) that the unbeliever said it only to be spared. Muhammad (saws) was very angry and told him (famous Hadith)

 
"Did you cleave his heart and see (whether his confession of belief was due to fear of death) ?" And kept repeating it.
 

It is a shame that Muhammad's message was not a consistent one,
but one changing from day to day.

This was a good message... showing that only the Creator has the ability to judge the heart.
asalaam.


No, no, no.  The shame is in the fact that people like you deceive yourself by living in your denial.  You get cornered by the facts and then resort to the same tired old polemical arguments. 

The message of Islam teaches its followers to be kind and just to all people but it also tells us that we can defend ourselves against those who wish to harm us.  You are confusing the permission to fight against oppressors as somehow "changing" the message to be kind to one's neighbors.  The reality is that both teachings apply. 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

Back to Top
Ron Webb View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Male
Joined: 30 January 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 2493
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2014 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by Muslim75 Muslim75 wrote:

Usama was the beloved of Muhammad (saws) and the son of Zaid, the beloved of Muhammad (saws). He fell upon an idolater in battle. Just as he was about to kill him, the unbeliever exclaimed there was only one God, so that he should be spared. But Usama killed him and said to Muhammad (saws) that the unbeliever said it only to be spared. Muhammad (saws) was very angry and told him (famous Hadith):
 
"Did you cleave his heart and see (whether his confession of belief was due to fear of death) ?" And kept repeating it.
 
As you can see, there is no comparison.

I agree, there is no comparison.  A Christian would always want to spare the life of a captured prisoner, regardless of his religion.

Quote
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

In Islam, love extends only to fellow Muslims.

You are wrong. The Hadith we are talking about applies to all mankind.

Yes I know, but Muhammad's "love" applied only to prisoners who (pretended to) convert.  Otherwise, he was fine with murdering them.

By the way, I am not a Christian.  I just happen to agree with the Christians that true love has to be unconditional.  Conditional love is worthless.  It is nothing more than a bargaining ploy.
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
Back to Top
TG12345 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Male
Joined: 16 December 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 1185
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TG12345 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2014 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by Muslim75 Muslim75 wrote:

Usama was the beloved of Muhammad (saws) and the son of Zaid, the beloved of Muhammad (saws). He fell upon an idolater in battle. Just as he was about to kill him, the unbeliever exclaimed there was only one God, so that he should be spared. But Usama killed him and said to Muhammad (saws) that the unbeliever said it only to be spared. Muhammad (saws) was very angry and told him (famous Hadith)

 
"Did you cleave his heart and see (whether his confession of belief was due to fear of death) ?" And kept repeating it.
 

Originally posted by Caringheart Caringheart wrote:


It is a shame that Muhammad's message was not a consistent one,
but one changing from day to day.

This was a good message... showing that only the Creator has the ability to judge the heart.
asalaam.

Originally posted by Islamispeace Islamispeace wrote:


No, no, no.  The shame is in the fact that people like you deceive yourself by living in your denial.  You get cornered by the facts and then resort to the same tired old polemical arguments. 

The message of Islam teaches its followers to be kind and just to all people but it also tells us that we can defend ourselves against those who wish to harm us.  You are confusing the permission to fight against oppressors as somehow "changing" the message to be kind to one's neighbors.  The reality is that both teachings apply. 

As much as I love to argue/debate with Islamispeace, he is right when he says that Islam teaches kindness to one's neighbour and permission to wage war in self-defence.

As also Ron Webb correctly pointed out, Jesus took this a step further by not only ordering commanding for neighbours, but also enemies. That is a lot harder to do than loving those who love you and fighting those who hate you... even if it is in self-defence and not offense.

This teaching is one a few reasons why, in spite of the many errors and contradictions that remain in the Bible, I am still a Christian.



Edited by TG12345 - 14 September 2014 at 3:47pm
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 28>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.