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samr View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21 July 2015 at 8:29am
thanks alot
Originally posted by samr samr wrote:

Originally posted by midomidi2013 midomidi2013 wrote:



Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:



Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:

Jainism doesn't teach in the existence of God, and as I already stated, I'm not willing to become an atheist. You
are the first Muslim I have met who encourages non-Muslims to convert
to Jainism. That must be a first in the history of Islamicity.
Jainism believes in a "god" who did not create the universe and will not destroy it, and he does not even "operate" it.<span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Book Antiqua; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-trans: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: 10pt;"><span style="line-height: 1.22em; color: rgb(128, 0, 0); font-size: 10pt;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">The
Truth </span>– Other philosophies including Hinduism, believe their truth to
be absolute. As per Anekantvad in Jainism the truth is relative and
multisided. Non-violence in Jainism is ultimate – it encompasses even
the minutest life forms. On the other hand in Hinduism, it is
restricted to vegetarianism (that too under some castes) and cow
protection. Concept of God is also different. Unlike Hinduism, Jainism
does not believe God to be Creator, Operator and Destructor of
Universe.
Thus it can be seen that same terms connote different
meanings in Hinduism and Jainism.</span></span>http://www.jaina.org/?MythsI don't consider such a being to be God. Also didn't say Jains are atheists, but converting to such a religion for me would be like becoming a "deist"... or in other words, an "atheist-lite".If you consider a being that did not create the world, will not destroy it, does not operate it, does not care about us, will not judge us... and anyone of us can become like such as being "God"... that is your choice, not mine.<h3>Jainism and the divine</h3>
     

Jains do not believe in a God or gods in the way that many other
religions do, but they do believe in divine (or at least perfect) beings
who are worthy of devotion.



This makes it difficult to give a straight answer to the question "is Jainism ?" The scholar Heinrich Zimmer suggested that a new word was needed: transtheistic, meaning "inaccessible by arguments as to whether or not a God exists".



<h3>God and the problem of evil</h3>
     

The Jain view of God enables Jainism to explain the evil and
suffering that exists in the world without the intellectual difficulties
faced by religions that have an omnipotent, wholly good, creator God at
their heart.



Where religions such as 
find the problem of evil one of their toughest tests, Jains use the
existence of evil as a reason for denying the existence of an
omnipotent, wholly good, Creator.



<h3>Jainism and God - the theistic side</h3>
     

Some writers regard the jinas as 'gods' because the jinas are venerated by Jains in the way that other faiths worship gods or God.



Jains venerate them because they have achieved perfection, and have become liberated from the cycle of birth and death.



The jinas are the ideal state of an individual soul's existence, and
are worshipped as a perfect example for Jains to aspire to. So the only
'gods' that exist for Jains are pure souls that are omniscient,
perfectly happy and eternal.



All of us could become such a 'god' because every being has the potential to become such a perfect soul.



In many ways the Jain attitude to perfect beings is both intelligible
and satisfying, and sufficient to demolish the claim that Jainism is an
atheistic religion. If one wants to argue that Jainism is atheistic
then one must do so from a specific, limited, idea of what it means to
be divine.



<h3>Prayers</h3>
     

Jain prayers aren't like the God-focussed prayers found in
Christianity. Instead Jain prayers tend to recall the great qualities of
the tirthankaras and remind the individual of various teachings.



<h3>Jainism and God - the atheistic side</h3>
     

Jains do not believe that the universe was created by God or by any other creative spirit. Jain writings are scornful of the very idea:



     
     
<div ="promo_quote__top"="">
     

     

If God created the world, where was he before creation? If you say
he was transcendent then, and needed no support, where is he now?


     

     
     
<div ="promo_quote__bottom"="">

     
     
<div ="promo_quote__top"="">
     

     

No single being had the skill to make this world -- For how can an immaterial god create that which is material?


     

     
     
<div ="promo_quote__bottom"="">

     
     
<div ="promo_quote__top"="">
     

     

If God is ever perfect and complete, how could the will to create
have arisen in him? If, on the other hand, he is not perfect, he could
no more create the universe than a potter could.


     

     
     
<div ="promo_quote__bottom"="">

<h3>There is no God to maintain the universe</h3>
     

Jains do not believe that any form of god is necessary to keep the
universe in existence, or that any form of god has any power over the
universe.



<h3>There is no God of judgement</h3>
     

Jains do not believe in that sort of judgement. Jains believe that the goodness or quality of a being's life are determined by .



Jains believe that karma is a physical process, and nothing to do with spiritual beings.



<h3>There is no God the ruler</h3>
     

Jains do not believe that there is a god who must be obeyed.



<h3>There is no God who helps people</h3>
     

Jains do not believe in any god who will respond to prayer or
intervene in the world. The beings that Jains worship have no interest
in human beings.



The beings that Jains worship are beyond human contact and they cannot intervene in the world.



<h3>There is no God who demands worship</h3>
     

The perfect beings that Jains worship have no interest in human beings.



Any being that desired anything would not be perfect and thus not a god.



<h3>There is no God compared to whom each of us will always be inferior</h3>
     

Every soul has the potential to become perfect. All perfect souls are equal.



<h3>The heavenly beings are not gods</h3>
     

The beings that live in the heavenly kingdoms are not gods since they
are still subject to karma and reincarnation. These beings are called
devas.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/jainism/beliefs/god.shtml

Many people mistake Jainism for Hinduism, when they are actually very different.  Jains believe in gods known as "Thirthankars".
Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:

There are three threads waiting for you, buddy. Reply when you have time, and when I have time I will reply to your response.
Originally posted by Islamispeace Islamispeace wrote:

I assume that one of these is the one about the Exodus and how it allegedly didn't happen, which of course would falsify the Bible? [IMG]smileys/smiley2.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Wink" />
Correction. It would falsify not only the Bible, but the Quran also.
Originally posted by Islamispeace Islamispeace wrote:

Patience is a virtue, "buddy".  I will get to them in time.
Glad to hear, pal. Take all the time you need.BTW when I write "buddy" or "pal", I don't mean them in a sarcastic or disrespectful way. Many of us teachers, especially those who work in middle schools, often call both our students and each other "bud". It's just slang, I guess.
So God is not merciful to the unbelievers? Is that what your faith really teaches?Isn't provision of the earth an act of mercy?You can love someone but allow them to make their own choices and suffer the consequence of these choices.Regarding
hell and God's mercy, if God is as you say merciful only to those who
seek forgiveness, He is less merciful than many people who show mercy to
both the repentant and unrepentant. You can keep door #2, I'm not following you in. [IMG]http://www.islamicity.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Confused" />[IMG]http://www.islamicity.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Confused" />



شركة تنظيف بالرياض
كشف تسربات المياه
شركة تنظيف منازل بالرياض
شركة جلي رخام بالرياض
شركة مكافحة حشرات بالرياض
شركة تنظيف خزانات بالرياض
شركة نقل اثاث بالرياض

شركة تنظيف شقق بالرياض
شركة تنظيف فلل بالرياض

شركة مكافحة النمل الابيض بالرياض
شركة تخزين اثاث بالرياض
شركة تنظيف بجدة

كشف تسربات المياه بجدة
شركة نقل اثاث بجدة
شركة مكافحة النمل الابيض بجدة
شركة مكافحة حشرات بجدة
شركة تنظيف خزانات بجدة
شركة تنظيف بالدمام
شركة تنظيف شقق بالدمام
شركة مكافحة حشرات بالدمام
شركة كشف تسربات المياه بالدمام

شركة مكافحة النمل الابيض بالدمام
شركة نقل اثاث بالدمام
شركة تنظيف خزانات بالدمام
شركة تسليك مجاري بالدمام
شركة جلي رخام بالدمام
شركة تنظيف سجاد بالدمام
شركة تنظيف منازل بالدمام
شركة تنظيف مجالس بالدمام
شركة تنظيف كنب بالدمام
شركة شراء اثاث مستعمل بالرياض
شركة مكافحة حشرات بعنيزة
شركة مكافحة بق الفراش بالرياض
شركة عزل خزنات بالرياض
شركة تنظيف موكيت بالرياض
شركة تنظيف مجالس بالرياض
شركة تنظيف سجاد بالرياض
شركة تنظيف ستائر بالرياض
شركة تنظيف واجهات حجر بالرياض
شركة تنظيف واجهات زجاج بالرياض
شركة تنظيف مسابح بالرياض
شركة تنظيف بالمدينة المنورة
شركة نقل اثاث بالمدينة المنورة
شركة جلي بلاط بالمدينة المنورة
شركة تنظيف مسابح بالمدينة المنورة
شركة تنظيف واجهات زجاج بالمدينة المنورة
شركة تنظيف مجالس بالمدينة المنورة
شركة تسليك مجاري بالمدينة المنورة
شركة عزل خزانات بالمدينة المنورة
شركة كشف تسربات المياه بالمدينة المنورة
شركة مكافحة حشرات بالمدينة المنورة
شركة مكافحة النمل الابيض بالمدينة المنورة
شركة تنظيف ارضيات بالمدينة المنورة

———

افضل شركة نقل اثاث بالرياض
شركة تنظيف منازل بالرياض
كشف تسربات المياه بالرياض
شركة مكافحة حشرات بالرياض
شركة مكافحة النمل الابيض بالرياض
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samr View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 February 2015 at 9:34pm
thanls
Originally posted by samr samr wrote:

Originally posted by midomidi2013 midomidi2013 wrote:



Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:



Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:

Jainism doesn't teach in the existence of God, and as I already stated, I'm not willing to become an atheist. You
are the first Muslim I have met who encourages non-Muslims to convert
to Jainism. That must be a first in the history of Islamicity.
Jainism believes in a "god" who did not create the universe and will not destroy it, and he does not even "operate" it.<span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Book Antiqua; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-trans: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: 10pt;"><span style="line-height: 1.22em; color: rgb(128, 0, 0); font-size: 10pt;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">The
Truth </span>– Other philosophies including Hinduism, believe their truth to
be absolute. As per Anekantvad in Jainism the truth is relative and
multisided. Non-violence in Jainism is ultimate – it encompasses even
the minutest life forms. On the other hand in Hinduism, it is
restricted to vegetarianism (that too under some castes) and cow
protection. Concept of God is also different. Unlike Hinduism, Jainism
does not believe God to be Creator, Operator and Destructor of
Universe.
Thus it can be seen that same terms connote different
meanings in Hinduism and Jainism.</span></span>http://www.jaina.org/?MythsI don't consider such a being to be God. Also didn't say Jains are atheists, but converting to such a religion for me would be like becoming a "deist"... or in other words, an "atheist-lite".If you consider a being that did not create the world, will not destroy it, does not operate it, does not care about us, will not judge us... and anyone of us can become like such as being "God"... that is your choice, not mine.<h3>Jainism and the divine</h3>
     

Jains do not believe in a God or gods in the way that many other
religions do, but they do believe in divine (or at least perfect) beings
who are worthy of devotion.



This makes it difficult to give a straight answer to the question "is Jainism ?" The scholar Heinrich Zimmer suggested that a new word was needed: transtheistic, meaning "inaccessible by arguments as to whether or not a God exists".



<h3>God and the problem of evil</h3>
     

The Jain view of God enables Jainism to explain the evil and
suffering that exists in the world without the intellectual difficulties
faced by religions that have an omnipotent, wholly good, creator God at
their heart.



Where religions such as 
find the problem of evil one of their toughest tests, Jains use the
existence of evil as a reason for denying the existence of an
omnipotent, wholly good, Creator.



<h3>Jainism and God - the theistic side</h3>
     

Some writers regard the jinas as 'gods' because the jinas are venerated by Jains in the way that other faiths worship gods or God.



Jains venerate them because they have achieved perfection, and have become liberated from the cycle of birth and death.



The jinas are the ideal state of an individual soul's existence, and
are worshipped as a perfect example for Jains to aspire to. So the only
'gods' that exist for Jains are pure souls that are omniscient,
perfectly happy and eternal.



All of us could become such a 'god' because every being has the potential to become such a perfect soul.



In many ways the Jain attitude to perfect beings is both intelligible
and satisfying, and sufficient to demolish the claim that Jainism is an
atheistic religion. If one wants to argue that Jainism is atheistic
then one must do so from a specific, limited, idea of what it means to
be divine.



<h3>Prayers</h3>
     

Jain prayers aren't like the God-focussed prayers found in
Christianity. Instead Jain prayers tend to recall the great qualities of
the tirthankaras and remind the individual of various teachings.



<h3>Jainism and God - the atheistic side</h3>
     

Jains do not believe that the universe was created by God or by any other creative spirit. Jain writings are scornful of the very idea:



     
     
<div ="promo_quote__top"="">
     

     

If God created the world, where was he before creation? If you say
he was transcendent then, and needed no support, where is he now?


     

     
     
<div ="promo_quote__bottom"="">

     
     
<div ="promo_quote__top"="">
     

     

No single being had the skill to make this world -- For how can an immaterial god create that which is material?


     

     
     
<div ="promo_quote__bottom"="">

     
     
<div ="promo_quote__top"="">
     

     

If God is ever perfect and complete, how could the will to create
have arisen in him? If, on the other hand, he is not perfect, he could
no more create the universe than a potter could.


     

     
     
<div ="promo_quote__bottom"="">

<h3>There is no God to maintain the universe</h3>
     

Jains do not believe that any form of god is necessary to keep the
universe in existence, or that any form of god has any power over the
universe.



<h3>There is no God of judgement</h3>
     

Jains do not believe in that sort of judgement. Jains believe that the goodness or quality of a being's life are determined by .



Jains believe that karma is a physical process, and nothing to do with spiritual beings.



<h3>There is no God the ruler</h3>
     

Jains do not believe that there is a god who must be obeyed.



<h3>There is no God who helps people</h3>
     

Jains do not believe in any god who will respond to prayer or
intervene in the world. The beings that Jains worship have no interest
in human beings.



The beings that Jains worship are beyond human contact and they cannot intervene in the world.



<h3>There is no God who demands worship</h3>
     

The perfect beings that Jains worship have no interest in human beings.



Any being that desired anything would not be perfect and thus not a god.



<h3>There is no God compared to whom each of us will always be inferior</h3>
     

Every soul has the potential to become perfect. All perfect souls are equal.



<h3>The heavenly beings are not gods</h3>
     

The beings that live in the heavenly kingdoms are not gods since they
are still subject to karma and reincarnation. These beings are called
devas.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/jainism/beliefs/god.shtml

Many people mistake Jainism for Hinduism, when they are actually very different.  Jains believe in gods known as "Thirthankars".
Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:

There are three threads waiting for you, buddy. Reply when you have time, and when I have time I will reply to your response.
Originally posted by Islamispeace Islamispeace wrote:

I assume that one of these is the one about the Exodus and how it allegedly didn't happen, which of course would falsify the Bible? [IMG]smileys/smiley2.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Wink" />
Correction. It would falsify not only the Bible, but the Quran also.
Originally posted by Islamispeace Islamispeace wrote:

Patience is a virtue, "buddy".  I will get to them in time.
Glad to hear, pal. Take all the time you need.BTW when I write "buddy" or "pal", I don't mean them in a sarcastic or disrespectful way. Many of us teachers, especially those who work in middle schools, often call both our students and each other "bud". It's just slang, I guess.
So God is not merciful to the unbelievers? Is that what your faith really teaches?Isn't provision of the earth an act of mercy?You can love someone but allow them to make their own choices and suffer the consequence of these choices.Regarding
hell and God's mercy, if God is as you say merciful only to those who
seek forgiveness, He is less merciful than many people who show mercy to
both the repentant and unrepentant. You can keep door #2, I'm not following you in. [IMG]http://www.islamicity.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Confused" />[IMG]http://www.islamicity.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Confused" />


شركة تنظيف بالرياض

شركة تنظيف فلل بالرياض
شركة تنظيف شقق بالرياض
شركة عزل خزانات بجدة
شركة مكافحة النمل الابيض بجدة
شركة غسيل خزانات بالرياض
شركة تنسيق حدائق بالدمام
شركة تنظيف مسابح بالرياض
شركة تنسيق حدائق بالرياض
شركة تنظيف بالدمام
شركة تنظيف بيوت بالرياض
افضل شركة نقل اثاث بالرياض
افضل شركة نقل عفش بالرياض
شركة تخزين اثاث بالرياض
شركة كشف تسربات المياه بالرياض
شركة شراء اثاث مستعمل بالرياض
كشف تسربات المياه
شركة مكافحة حشرات بالرياض
شركة رش مبيدات بالرياض
شركة بيع اشجار بالرياض
شركة مكافحة النمل الابيض
شركة مكافحة الفئران بالرياض
شركة تنظيف بجدة
شركة نقل عفش بجدة
شركة بيع اشجار بالدمام
شركة تنظيف شقق بجدة
شركة مكافحة حشرات بجدة
شركة رش حشرات بجدة
شركة كشف تسربات المياه بجدة
شركة عزل خزانات بالرياض
شركة عزل اسطح بالرياض
شركة تسليك مجاري بالرياض
كشف تسربات المياه
شركة مكافحة حشرات بالدمام
شركة نقل اثاث بالدمام
شركة تنظيف واجهات حجر بالرياض
شركة جلي بلاط بأبها
شركة جلي بلاط بخميس مشيط
شركة جلي بلاط بالرياض
شركة جلي بلاط بالخرج
شركة جلي بلاط بالدمام
شركة جلي بلاط بجدة
شركة جلي بلاط بمكة المكرمة
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joel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote joel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 December 2014 at 5:02am
Originally posted by Muslim75 Muslim75 wrote:

As to love in Islam, Muhammad teaches to be lenient and merciful to flies and mosquitos, even. He said in Hadith that there were rewards for doing good to anything that lives. The Qur'an goes further and points to doing good to anything, not just anything that lives, since Allah Almighty says absolutely everything in the universe praises Him. So Muslims are asked to love everything in this universe, precisely because it is the Creation of the Creator they love.


"Love of the Beloved is the day and the night

And we are like a thirsty fish in this river, day and night"

 

Jalal Al Din Rumi

 

Christianity or Judaism do not come close to this.


I love the zeal of muslim75 and caringheart although in belief I only agree with caringheart, but your(muslim75 and caring--) 2 massive blogs can be summed up with romans 8:27. The spirit intercedes so that GOD’S will be done.
Christians are compared to lambs ,which Christ calls innocent, something innocent won’t hurt the land. Also God gave the garden of eden to Adam and he was to be fruitful and multiply. How could he be fruitful if he were damaging the land. God also gave Adam charge over the animals to do good no doubt. It is written of Yeshua that a BRUISED REED he DID NOT HURT. I’d rather be compared to sheep than a piranha(fish). Im just saying.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caringheart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 November 2014 at 11:56am
Originally posted by Muslim75 Muslim75 wrote:

As to love in Islam, Muhammad teaches to be lenient and merciful to flies and mosquitos, even. He said in Hadith that there were rewards for doing good to anything that lives. The Qur'an goes further and points to doing good to anything, not just anything that lives, since Allah Almighty says absolutely everything in the universe praises Him. So Muslims are asked to love everything in this universe, precisely because it is the Creation of the Creator they love.

"Love of the Beloved is the day and the night
And we are like a thirsty fish in this river, day and night"
 
Jalal Al Din Rumi
 
Christianity or Judaism do not come close to this.

Greetings Muslim75,

Christianity or Judaism do not come close to this ?

Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

These are the words of Yshwe, recorded in the book of John, chapter 15

Yshwe laid down His life for our salvation... for us.

asalaam,
Caringheart



Edited by Caringheart - 30 November 2014 at 11:58am
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caringheart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 November 2014 at 11:36am
Originally posted by Muslim75 Muslim75 wrote:


  Before Muhammad was commissioned as a prophet, the arab society, even though it was quite uncivilized had a culture and a way of life they were quite proud of (an example is the great poetry that they would do). Among these people of Quraysh there were some men and women (like Muhammad, Abu Bakr, Khadijah, Umar, Hamza, etc...) which forced the admiration of others. Then one day Muhammad (salla Lahu alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) said: "Allah Almighty has made me a prophet." Immediately, he met with undescribable hostility, and so did whoever believed in him. This, everyone knows. So when a Companion says, I saw Muhammad do this, I saw Muhammad do that, we know who is saying it. This, everyone accepts.
 
Muhammad (salla Lahu alyhi wa alihi wa sallam) was holy and heavenly. Whoso knows a little about Islam knows that, because he knows of the Night Journey. And one day Muhammad said a revelation came saying that Allah Almighty will preserve and protect the Qur'an, so that it shall remain forever authentic. This is how we know the authenticity of the Qur'an. Muhammad had with him Companions, and they were all holy and heavenly. Indeed, Muhammad said his Companions are like stars. Whoever you follow among them, you will be guided. He also said, when mention is made of his Companions, you must hold back. Note also that these are very well known Hadiths (one considered good, the other authentic). There were 124 000 Sahaba in some reports in Sufism. So Muhammad came with holy and heavenly men, the Companions. After the Companions, there came other holy and heavenly men, the Successors. After the Successors, they came yet other holy and heavenly men, the Successors of the Successors. And at each century, there came holy and heavenly men, the Sufi saints. Indeed, Muhammad said the Ulama (scholars) are the inheritors of the prophets. That is a very well known Tirmidhi Hadith also mentioned by others. So Muhammad meant those holy and heavenly Sufi saints, obviously.
 
The Companions assembled the Qur'an into one work under Abu Bakr, and the Qur'an was made a single book under Uthman. So it was during the early time of the Islamic kingdom, as in the beginning, all Muslims were in one kingdom. And all this was still within the time of the Companions. If any ruler after them was inclined to change the Holy Qur'an, then he would have to fear the destruction that might come directly from Allah, just like other peoples were destroyed before who rejected the prophets. There was no need even for that, because the holy and heavenly Successors came, and then the holy and heavenly Successors of the Successors came, and then the holy and the heavenly Sufi saints came, and all of them would have known and denounced the changing the words of the Qur'an. These holy and heavenly Sufi saints exist up to today in 2014. How many were the Sufi saints that had problems with the authorities ? When people would throw flowers at the feet of the kings of the Muslims, they would severely criticize them instead, even when those kings like Haroun Ar Rashid were known for their piety. So if those kings or anyone under them changed the Qur'an, it would have been denounced. That is why the Qur'an is authentic today, the same than the one the Companions used to read; and Muslims have been singing this book ceaselessly for 14 centuries.

Greetings Muslim75,

I will try to make my reply as comprehensive as possible.
"And one day Muhammad said a revelation came saying that Allah Almighty will preserve and protect the Qur'an, so that it shall remain forever authentic."
Wouldn't any person, wanting to protect his teachings, say such a thing?
"This is how we know the authenticity of the Qur'an."
This isn't how you 'know the authenticity of the qur'an'... you only know what Muhammad told people.

All of Joseph Smith's 'companions' were considered trustworthy and reliable supports too.  Just because they believed in him doesn't make him what he said he was. 

The same could be said I suppose of Yshwe's 'companions'... the thing is, there were multitudes who witnessed the things Yshwe did...  and multitudes (including Romans, not just those that wanted to believe in Him) that witnessed the death and resurrection... the darkening of the sun, the earthquake, and the rending of the veil.  We have a great deal more than the witness of His companions.

Muhammad and his companions may have created a good society (but I do not believe he left the people with a good theology, or ideology... I see another force at work in islam)...
Joseph Smith also created a good society... I think there are none better today than the Mormons, in their behavior...
but this does not make either Muhammad, or Joseph Smith, prophets of the one God.  It makes them men aware of the Word of God(which we already had), who used it to build their societies.  I see a combination of Christianity and islam in Joseph Smith's early teaching.  The Mormon faith went through some transitions, bringing it closer now I believe to Christianity, but they still have some unusual beliefs based on Joseph Smith's interpretations of what he knew.
I see a combination of Christianity and Judaism in Muhammad's teaching, but with Muhammad taking the people backwards, away from Yshwe, and towards the earlier more primitive Judaism... which I feel is probably due to the fact that it was more culturally familiar and comfortable to him, and therefore more seemingly correct.

Muhammad's 'companions' were his family, and close friends of his family.
It makes sense that young people would be taught that they were 'holy and heavenly men' because that is the way young people are taught to continue in the faith... by believing that these men were somehow special, but in truth they were just men that were close to Muhammad and chose to follow him.  Muhammad had wealth... it seems to me that lots of people like to find ways to be close to people with wealth as a way of improving their own standing in the world.
All that you have been taught is a nice thought, but I wonder how much truth is in it, and how much is inflated fantasy.
I do rather believe in the sufi's... I sort of think of them as the monks of Christianity.  Their interest is not political, but only in achieving closeness to the Creator.

You do know that the qur'an which Abu Bakr had was rejected?  and Uthman compiled his own...  Uthman's qur'an was different from Abu Bakr's qur'an.

You also do know that there were 7 different ways of reciting the qur'an, and that Muhammad said to 'choose the one that suits you best', it does not matter?

Narrated by 'Umar bin Al-Khattab

    I heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat Al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle and I listened to his recitation and noticed that he recited in several different ways which Allah's Apostle had not taught me. I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I controlled my temper, and when he had completed his prayer, I put his upper garment around his neck and seized him by it and said, "Who taught you this Sura which I heard you reciting?" He replied, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me." I said, "You have told a lie, for Allah's Apostle has taught it to me in a different way from yours." So I dragged him to Allah's Apostle and said (to Allah's Apostle): "I heard this person reciting Surat Al-Furqan in a way which you haven't taught me!" On that Allah's Apostle said, "Release him, (O 'Umar!) Recite, O Hisham!" Then he recited in the same way as I heard him reciting. Then Allah's Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way," and added, "Recite, O 'Umar!" I recited it as he had taught me. Allah's Apostle then said, "It was revealed in this way. This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever (way) is easier for you (or read as much of it as may be easy for you)."
sahih-bukhari, Vol. 6, book 61, number 514


What do you say about these;

 "Ubayy entered the mosque and, hearing a man recite, asked him who had instructed him. The man replied that he had been taught by the Prophet. Ubayy went in search of the Prophet. When the man recited. Muhammad said, 'That is correct.' Ubayy protested, 'But you taught me to recite so-and-so,' The Prophet said that Ubayy was right too. 'Right? right?' burst out Ubayy in perplexity. The Prophet struck him on the chest and prayed, 'O Allah! cause doubt to depart.' Ubayy broke into a sweat as his heart filled with terror. Muhammad disclosed that two angels had come to him. One said, 'Recite the Qur'an in one form.' The other advised Muhammad to ask for more than this. That was repeated several times until finally the first angel said. 'Very well. Recite it in seven forms.' The Prophet said, 'Each of the forms is grace-giving, protecting, so long as you don't terminate a punishment verse with an expression of mercy, or vice-versa - as you might for example say, Let's go; or, let's be off.' " (Tafsir of Tabari.).

"A man complained to the Prophet, Abdullah taught me to recite a Sura of the Qur'an. Zaid taught me the same Sura and so too did Ubayy. The readings of all three differ. Whose reading ought I to adopt?' Muhammad remained silent. Ali who was at his side replied, 'Every man should recite as he was taught. Each of the readings is acceptable, valid.' " (Tafsir of Tabari).

"Umar said, I heard Hisam b. Hukaim reciting Surat al Furqan and listened to his recital. On observing that he was reading many forms which the Prophet had not taught me, I all but rushed upon him as he prayed. But I waited patiently as he continued, and, collaring him when he had finished, I asked him, 'Who taught you to recite this Sura?' He claimed that the Prophet had taught him. I said, 'By God! you're lying!' I dragged him to the Prophet telling him that I had heard Hisam recite many forms he had not taught me. The Prophet said, 'Let him go. Recite, Hisam.' He recited the reading I had already heard from him. The Prophet said, 'That is how it was revealed.' He then said, 'Recite, Umar', and I recited what he had taught me. He said, 'That's right. That is how it was revealed. This Qur'an was revealed in seven forms, so recite what is easiest.' "(Tafsir of Tabari). (See also Mishkat vol.III pp. 702-705). Also, Al Baizawi (in his commentary on Suras 3:100, 6:91, 19:35, 28:48, 33:6, 34:18, 38:22, etc.) suggests variations extant in his time. (Mizanu'l Haqq, page 261).


"Umar bin Al-Khattab and Hisham bin Hakim were from the same tribe, therefore, this difference was not just a matter of dialect. Muslim leaders are exaggerating when they say there is only one version of the Qur'an. From the very beginning there were several versions. "

asalaam and my respects to you,
Caringheart



Edited by Caringheart - 01 December 2014 at 10:27pm
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
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