Are These Acts of Idolatry?

Andrew Eby wrote: To settle this argument you guys have here is the third eye point of view. Both of you are correct. If the Quran says like the Bible says that you shall not Bow before any Other God or Idol before me. Here lays the problem, I could say to you that your false as a follower Christ myself, but I won't because I do not believe that. The mere fact of bowing before ANYTHING is a symbol of worshiping, dedicating, repenting, talking is a form of idolizom no matter how put it, you can't play with words there. We all have the same beliefs just told diferently. Why do we have to fight or argue??!! Why can't we join together and share the secrets of the past as I have come to know myself through many years of reading and searching for the TRUTH. The TRUTH is our governments wants us to be like this, sheep without herder, cattle without it's wrangler, so easy to manipulate and distort the TRUTH, but just as BUDHA said " there are three things that cannot be long hidden; the sun, the moon and the TRUTH. We are finding the TRUTH, City of DWARKA found mythical place now proven not mythical. Huge city under Japan's water no name yet. Mayan or Incan city found under lake TITICACA. We are much much older then what main stream HISTORIANS have said for over thousands of years. Imformation is at your fingered tips my brothers and sisters. The day we come together as one PEOPLE, one GOD, one DESTINY is the day the world will know peace. So I ask YOU, Islam, Muslim, Buddhist, Jew, Catholic and very other religion, when do you really want to act like what believe in?? It's not with guns and war, it's with our mouths, pen and paper, the mass majority who are spiritual. We should all be at our governments front door. They are all not for the people of this PLANET. When can we start acting like a planet and stop with the race and religion and start growing with each others beliefs. We haven't figured out really who the heck we are yet let alone what happened in the past. So how can we sit here today and fight over this after thousands of years of doing so. We are like children in GODS eyes. Seriously think about it. We all believe that there is a GOD right?? So ask yourself how pissed off he is??!! I pray for the day we come together as a planet of humans and rejoice in our GOD and HIS MAJESTY. There is one thing in life that I do not get though is atheism. My point of view is that first there was noting, out of nothing came time, out of time came our GOD. Why do you think he knows the past present and future? Plus every word and every thought. That concept should open some eyes. I grew up in a Presbyterian house where my dad is the pastor. In my young years I thought to myself the world, universe had to much more grand then what the BIBLE told. I was right, one day I asked myself what reality meant to me. After a few months my eyes where open and it was like taking the red pill, TRUTH is our REALITY. REALITY is what a collective society and individual deem to be TRUE. That should be the defintion. Every theory you look up dances around the TRUTH. I have lots more knowledge for taking.

Hi Andrew.  Welcome to the forum.  I do appreciate your attempts to promote peace, but we are merely having discussions.  We have disagreements, and there is passion on both sides.  That's okay. 

I disagree with you that we all have the same beliefs but told differently.  When you compare the various religions, there are certainly similarities.  For example, all religions emphasize compassion.  But there are also differences.  There is no denying this.  And in most cases, the differences are very significant.  For example, Christians worship Jesus.  Muslims do not.  Such a belief is anathema to us.  There just cannot be any compromise in this regard.     

Andrew Eby wrote: To settle this argument you guys have here is the third eye point of view. Both of you are correct. If the Quran says like the Bible says that you shall not Bow before any Other God or Idol before me. Here lays the problem, I could say to you that your false as a follower Christ myself, but I won't because I do not believe that. The mere fact of bowing before ANYTHING is a symbol of worshiping, dedicating, repenting, talking is a form of idolizom no matter how put it, you can't play with words there. We all have the same beliefs just told diferently. Why do we have to fight or argue??!! Why can't we join together and share the secrets of the past as I have come to know myself through many years of reading and searching for the TRUTH. The TRUTH is our governments wants us to be like this, sheep without herder, cattle without it's wrangler, so easy to manipulate and distort the TRUTH, but just as BUDHA said " there are three things that cannot be long hidden; the sun, the moon and the TRUTH. We are finding the TRUTH, City of DWARKA found mythical place now proven not mythical. Huge city under Japan's water no name yet. Mayan or Incan city found under lake TITICACA. We are much much older then what main stream HISTORIANS have said for over thousands of years. Imformation is at your fingered tips my brothers and sisters. The day we come together as one PEOPLE, one GOD, one DESTINY is the day the world will know peace. So I ask YOU, Islam, Muslim, Buddhist, Jew, Catholic and very other religion, when do you really want to act like what believe in?? It's not with guns and war, it's with our mouths, pen and paper, the mass majority who are spiritual. We should all be at our governments front door. They are all not for the people of this PLANET. When can we start acting like a planet and stop with the race and religion and start growing with each others beliefs. We haven't figured out really who the heck we are yet let alone what happened in the past. So how can we sit here today and fight over this after thousands of years of doing so. We are like children in GODS eyes. Seriously think about it. We all believe that there is a GOD right?? So ask yourself how pissed off he is??!! I pray for the day we come together as a planet of humans and rejoice in our GOD and HIS MAJESTY. There is one thing in life that I do not get though is atheism. My point of view is that first there was noting, out of nothing came time, out of time came our GOD. Why do you think he knows the past present and future? Plus every word and every thought. That concept should open some eyes. I grew up in a Presbyterian house where my dad is the pastor. In my young years I thought to myself the world, universe had to much more grand then what the BIBLE told. I was right, one day I asked myself what reality meant to me. After a few months my eyes where open and it was like taking the red pill, TRUTH is our REALITY. REALITY is what a collective society and individual deem to be TRUE. That should be the defintion. Every theory you look up dances around the TRUTH. I have lots more knowledge for taking.

Equation for reality or the truth as I would say.

Cp-p=r>p
Cp- common properties/ commonalities of all of life
P-probability (false)
R- reality (true)

Reality has to be greater than probability. Basic understanding of TRUTH is that you have to acknowledge that there is truth in false and false in truth. Until the day the TRUTH is fully revealed by our governments and leaders of the Catholic Church

Ron Webb wrote: Not me personally.  I'm not actually a sentimental type.  But I know lots of people who are, and I could easily imagine them talking to a picture when no one is around. An better example would be how people treat the dead.  I've seen lots of graves that look like shrines.  Some even have pictures of the deceased.  Relatives visit regularly, bring flowers and other gifts, have "conversations" with the dead, etc.  These people know perfectly well that their loved ones are departed and only the corpse or the ashes are buried there.  It's all symbolism.  But it comforts them to do these things.

This is again an absurd comparison.  Praying to a statue is completely different from "talking" to a loved one at their grave.  First of all, for people who believe in the afterlife, a loved one who has passed on is not just a "corpse" or "ashes", because the soul still exists.  So, conversing with the departed makes sense in the regard.  In fact, it is stated in a hadith that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) would greet the "inmates of the graves" and pray to Allah that they be granted safety and forgiveness (of course, there is nothing in the Islamic sources about being able to have actual "conversation" with the dead).  Now, of course, there are some people who take graves as literal "shrines" and even pray to the dead person.  This is also idolatry.  Some extremist Sufi sects practice this as well.  This is all shirk and a grave sin.

Ron Webb wrote: No, not correct at all.  No more correct than suggesting that because my wife is physically present on earth, then a picture of her is not necessary.

         

How do you know?  Do you think there were statues of Mary when she was still alive (assuming people actually prayed to her)?  What about Jesus?  Obviously, if Mary was physically present, for example, in front of the Pope, he would not need a statue to pray to her.  He could just tell her what he wanted! 

Ron Webb wrote: No, prayers are still being made to Mary, not to a physical object.  If I call my wife on the phone, I'm still talking to my wife, even though my voice is being directed to a physical device.

Is Mary, or any other person, not a "physical object"?  

Ron Webb wrote: Of course it is.  They obviously can't do those things to the "real" god, so they do it symbolically.

  

Are you kidding?  If it was all "symbolic", then there would be no need to use music to "wake up" the idol (and yes, it is the idol that is being literally "woken" up).  There would also be no need to "bathe" the idol (and yes, it is the idol that is literally being "bathed").  This is all literal, not symbolic.  Your special pleading will get you no where.   

Ron Webb wrote: Yes, as in the so-called "milk miracle", for instance.  You believe it was demons acting through the idols.  The Hindus believed it was the gods themselves.  Just as if Muhammad "split the moon", it would actually be Allah acting through Muhammad, not Muhammad himself performing the miracle.

And you believe it was either capillary action, evaporation, mass hysteria, observational error etc., and yet after being confronted with the facts, you have avoided further discussion! 

Ron Webb wrote: Do you even know what "humanism" is?

Yes, I know what "humanism" is and I also know that atheistic apologists are embarrassed at the fact that fellow atheists have committed monstrous acts of violence (despite their insistence to the contrary), so they use the word "humanism" instead, because it sounds so much better. 

The reality is that using different words does not change the fact that atheists are a bunch of clowns who try to whitewash history. 

By the way, do you even know what "Islam" is?  I think not! 

Ron Webb wrote: I wouldn't ask for proof of a hypothetical.  I said I'd like to see you make the case for it.  It's interesting that your response was that the world would not be very different.  So you agree that "the religion of peace" has not not brought peace to the world?

No, you ninny, that's not what I said.  I said that even if Islam did not exist, the world would still be a violent place.  People are the problem, not some ideology or religion.  So even if Islam did not exist, the problems in the Middle East (for example) would still exist.  Conversely, if people actually followed the tenets of Islam, then the world would be a much better place. 

In fact, I would actually say that if Islam did not exist, the world would be a much worse place, because then there would not be the moral compass of Islamic tenets to persuade people to avoid sinful behavior, such as violence against the innocent.  Islam abolished savage acts like female infanticide, tribal war etc.  It also jump-started the European Renaissance.  If it did not exist, then it is unlikely that the Renaissance would have ever occurred.  At the very least, the Renaissance would have been delayed for hundreds of years.

Ron Webb wrote: There has been a state of almost continuous tension between Christianity and Islam ever since the beginning, with innumerable wars and incalculable bloodshed.  Are you sure this isn't something that Satan would have wanted to bring about?

There you go again with your clownish statements.  Satan could just as easily have caused "continuous tension" by spreading the pagan religion instead, wouldn't you say?  After all, the Christians weren't exactly known for their tolerance of other religions and as we have seen, polytheists have also been know for their intolerance! 

And yet, with the spread of Islam, many once oppressed communities (including Christians themselves) were given much more freedom than they previously had.  Even Christians themselves admit this!  For example, author David Bercot has observed:
 
"Sadly to say, when the Muslim armies invaded Egypt in 639, most Christians in Egypt welcomed them as liberators, for they fared better at the hands of the Muslims than they did at the hands of their fellow Christians." ("Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up: A New Look at Today�s Evangelical Church in the Light of Early Christianity� p. 123")

Also, i-d-i-o-t-s like you tend to ignore the fact (or are completely oblivious to the fact) that in many cases, Muslim and Christian leaders showed mutual respect to each other and did not have "continuous tension" between them.  For example, the Abbasid caliph Harun Al-Rashid had friendly relations with Charlemagne and each would send gifts to the other.

I hardly think that all of this was part of Satan's plan!   

Ron Webb wrote: Thanks, I'll see if I can track it down at my local library.  Meanwhile, I have enough reading just trying to get through your posts.

Oh, you're making me cry!  

If you are at all interested in learning about Islam, free of all your m-o-r-o-n-i-c prejudices, then you should be much more enthusiastic at all the "reading" you have to do.  But, I know that you are just another Islamophobe living in his fantasy world, so I frankly doubt that you are interested in really learning anything.  I have suggested a few books already for you to read.  Will you actually read them?  Time will tell, but I doubt that you will. 


Edited by islamispeace - 17 August 2014 at 12:28pm