Are These Acts of Idolatry?

Andrew Eby wrote: To settle this argument you guys have here is the third eye point of view. Both of you are correct. If the Quran says like the Bible says that you shall not Bow before any Other God or Idol before me. Here lays the problem, I could say to you that your false as a follower Christ myself, but I won't because I do not believe that. The mere fact of bowing before ANYTHING is a symbol of worshiping, dedicating, repenting, talking is a form of idolizom no matter how put it, you can't play with words there. We all have the same beliefs just told diferently. Why do we have to fight or argue??!! Why can't we join together and share the secrets of the past as I have come to know myself through many years of reading and searching for the TRUTH. The TRUTH is our governments wants us to be like this, sheep without herder, cattle without it's wrangler, so easy to manipulate and distort the TRUTH, but just as BUDHA said " there are three things that cannot be long hidden; the sun, the moon and the TRUTH. We are finding the TRUTH, City of DWARKA found mythical place now proven not mythical. Huge city under Japan's water no name yet. Mayan or Incan city found under lake TITICACA. We are much much older then what main stream HISTORIANS have said for over thousands of years. Imformation is at your fingered tips my brothers and sisters. The day we come together as one PEOPLE, one GOD, one DESTINY is the day the world will know peace. So I ask YOU, Islam, Muslim, Buddhist, Jew, Catholic and very other religion, when do you really want to act like what believe in?? It's not with guns and war, it's with our mouths, pen and paper, the mass majority who are spiritual. We should all be at our governments front door. They are all not for the people of this PLANET. When can we start acting like a planet and stop with the race and religion and start growing with each others beliefs. We haven't figured out really who the heck we are yet let alone what happened in the past. So how can we sit here today and fight over this after thousands of years of doing so. We are like children in GODS eyes. Seriously think about it. We all believe that there is a GOD right?? So ask yourself how pissed off he is??!! I pray for the day we come together as a planet of humans and rejoice in our GOD and HIS MAJESTY. There is one thing in life that I do not get though is atheism. My point of view is that first there was noting, out of nothing came time, out of time came our GOD. Why do you think he knows the past present and future? Plus every word and every thought. That concept should open some eyes. I grew up in a Presbyterian house where my dad is the pastor. In my young years I thought to myself the world, universe had to much more grand then what the BIBLE told. I was right, one day I asked myself what reality meant to me. After a few months my eyes where open and it was like taking the red pill, TRUTH is our REALITY. REALITY is what a collective society and individual deem to be TRUE. That should be the defintion. Every theory you look up dances around the TRUTH. I have lots more knowledge for taking.

Andrew Eby wrote: To settle this argument you guys have here is the third eye point of view. Both of you are correct. If the Quran says like the Bible says that you shall not Bow before any Other God or Idol before me. Here lays the problem, I could say to you that your false as a follower Christ myself, but I won't because I do not believe that. The mere fact of bowing before ANYTHING is a symbol of worshiping, dedicating, repenting, talking is a form of idolizom no matter how put it, you can't play with words there. We all have the same beliefs just told diferently. Why do we have to fight or argue??!! Why can't we join together and share the secrets of the past as I have come to know myself through many years of reading and searching for the TRUTH. The TRUTH is our governments wants us to be like this, sheep without herder, cattle without it's wrangler, so easy to manipulate and distort the TRUTH, but just as BUDHA said " there are three things that cannot be long hidden; the sun, the moon and the TRUTH. We are finding the TRUTH, City of DWARKA found mythical place now proven not mythical. Huge city under Japan's water no name yet. Mayan or Incan city found under lake TITICACA. We are much much older then what main stream HISTORIANS have said for over thousands of years. Imformation is at your fingered tips my brothers and sisters. The day we come together as one PEOPLE, one GOD, one DESTINY is the day the world will know peace. So I ask YOU, Islam, Muslim, Buddhist, Jew, Catholic and very other religion, when do you really want to act like what believe in?? It's not with guns and war, it's with our mouths, pen and paper, the mass majority who are spiritual. We should all be at our governments front door. They are all not for the people of this PLANET. When can we start acting like a planet and stop with the race and religion and start growing with each others beliefs. We haven't figured out really who the heck we are yet let alone what happened in the past. So how can we sit here today and fight over this after thousands of years of doing so. We are like children in GODS eyes. Seriously think about it. We all believe that there is a GOD right?? So ask yourself how pissed off he is??!! I pray for the day we come together as a planet of humans and rejoice in our GOD and HIS MAJESTY. There is one thing in life that I do not get though is atheism. My point of view is that first there was noting, out of nothing came time, out of time came our GOD. Why do you think he knows the past present and future? Plus every word and every thought. That concept should open some eyes. I grew up in a Presbyterian house where my dad is the pastor. In my young years I thought to myself the world, universe had to much more grand then what the BIBLE told. I was right, one day I asked myself what reality meant to me. After a few months my eyes where open and it was like taking the red pill, TRUTH is our REALITY. REALITY is what a collective society and individual deem to be TRUE. That should be the defintion. Every theory you look up dances around the TRUTH. I have lots more knowledge for taking.

Hi Andrew.  Welcome to the forum.  I do appreciate your attempts to promote peace, but we are merely having discussions.  We have disagreements, and there is passion on both sides.  That's okay. 

I disagree with you that we all have the same beliefs but told differently.  When you compare the various religions, there are certainly similarities.  For example, all religions emphasize compassion.  But there are also differences.  There is no denying this.  And in most cases, the differences are very significant.  For example, Christians worship Jesus.  Muslims do not.  Such a belief is anathema to us.  There just cannot be any compromise in this regard.     

Ron Webb wrote: Yes, they should be able to, and they can and they do.  But they like having images of their gods, just as I like having a picture of my wife on my desk.  So what?  That doesn't mean I am in love with a picture.

Again, you are going in circles.  Comparing Catholic veneration of statues to a picture of your wife is absurd.  Do you make prayers to the picture?  Do you make offerings to it (as at least most Hindus do)? 

Suppose that Mary or the saints were physically present on the earth.  Obviously, in that situation, a statue would definitely not be necessary?  Correct?  So, Catholics would pray to the literal Mary or to a literal saint.  Would that not be idolatry?  Now, replace the literal Mary or the literal saint with a statue.  What changes?  Prayers are still being made to a physical object, even if it is a "symbol" which represents the actual being.  Is that not idolatry?

Ron Webb wrote: Then show me the research.  Don't just show me pictures that prove nothing unless you assume your conclusion beforehand, as you already admitted.

 

I have shown you the research already.  You have simply rejected it.  I have provided material from websites.  I have provided pictures and videos. 

Here is some more research.  In most Hindu temples, the idol is "woken up" every morning and given a bath.  Here is how a Hindu source describes it:

"Early in the morning, generally before sunrise, they wake him up to the accompaniment of music and devotional hymns, give him a bath, dress him up fully and gloriously and then worship him with all ardor and fervor making various offerings and chanting hymns of encomiums." (http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/pantheonfaq.asp) 

Is this all "symbolic"?  Is this something you would do to a mere "symbol"?

Ron Webb wrote: If the idols are symbolic (which they are), then obviously offerings to it are also symbolic.  But no, I don't have all the answers.  (Unlike you, apparently.)  If I needed to understand their symbolism in detail, I would ask a Hindu.

The same source explained in detail the various rituals that Hindus perform on these alleged "symbols", as shown above.  Moreover, the same source states clearly:

"A devout Hindu is not much ashamed of going to a temple and bowing before an idol.  He has no hesitation to stand in front of it and speak to it as if he is talking to an individual with the faith and devotion that is exemplary."

The source also states that sometimes the idol actually responds!  Would a mere symbol respond to acts of worship?

"But sometimes as recorded by human experience, the idols do respond and converse with man."

Ron Webb wrote: Such as?

Memory loss again?  Stalin? Mao?  Pol Pot?  Remember?

Ron Webb wrote: Yup, polytheists can and do persecute others.  The question is, is there less intolerance and persecution in the world now, with Islam, than there would have been without it?  I'd love to see you make the case for that.

Oh, your clownish responses make me laugh! 

Since we know that people from all walks of life, whether religious or not, are capable of violence and persecution of others, it is not hard to imagine that the world would not be very different if Islam did not exist.  Of course, I cannot prove what the world would have been like in this alternate reality, but neither can you prove that there would been "less intolerance and persecution".  It's hilarious how you ask for proof of an hypothetical scenario when in all your time suggesting your crackpot theories, you have not provide one iota of evidence to support them.  Bozo being Bozo...

By the way, you might want to read Graham Fuller's book "A World Without Islam".  He provides some key insights, if you are really interested in this hypothetical scenario. 

Your reading list is getting bigger by the day!    I sure hope you do some reading, if you are really interested in seeking answers.  Of course, if you don't, I won't mind.  It will just confirm that you are just a troll who has a very prejudiced view of Islam and Muslims.  Surprise, surprise!




Edited by islamispeace - 15 August 2014 at 8:18pm

islamispeace wrote: No, all you have are more crackpot theories.  You just literally make up arguments, irregardless of whether they make any sense or are supported by the evidence.  I responded to each of your "explanations" and showed why they were weak.  You didn't offer a rebuttal, besides more theories.  Again, that does seem to be your mantra.

It does not go unnoticed that Ron Webb still has no reasonable explanation, only crackpot theories...