IslamiCity.org Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > General > General Discussion
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Questions about Ramadan fast  What is Islam What is Islam  Donate Donate
  FAQ FAQ  Quran Search Quran Search  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Questions about Ramadan fast

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 345
Author
Message
Ron Webb View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Male atheist
Joined: 30 January 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 2467
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 June 2014 at 10:23am

Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:

You seem to be contradicting yourself.  First you say that "not every scenario need be specifically mentioned" but then you say "surely every possible scenario should be accounted for".  What's the difference?

 
One can account for all possible scenarios without specifically mentioning each.  For instance, one can say "All men must fast", without specifying that Canadians must fast and Americans must fast and Mexicans must fast...
 
Quote The scholars were not "disagree[ing] with the Quran and the Hadith".  In fact, they specifically based their views on both, as we have seen already.

According to Muhammad, the fast ends when the sun sets.  Anyone who says they can break their fast while the sun is still above the horizon is contradicting Muhammad.

Quote Finally, since you feel you are in a position to question who these scholars think they are "that they can amend the Quran...", it would be equally fair to ask who you think you are to question Islamic scholars for interpreting the Quran based on new and "unanticipated circumstances"?  You are not even a Muslim, so what difference does it make to you how Muslims interpret the rules of their religion with regard to fasting?

It makes no difference to me, but I think it ought to matter to you.  The Quran says to obey the Prophet (which IMHO is problematic in itself), but it says nothing about obeying "scholars".  It seems to me that Muslims have drifted into shirk, in so many ways.

Quote Simply facing toward the earth would be sufficient.  It is a person's intentions which count, especially when control of the situation is out of the person's hands.

By the way, Muslims have been participating in space travel already and have considered the issue of praying in space.

http://muslimvillage.com/2012/02/16/19699/muslim-astronauts-miracle-call-to-prayer-in-space/

Thanks for the link.  Yes, I don't know why I didn't consider the Russian space program.  However, I had in mind a more long-term residential space station, one which spins to simulate gravity.  There would be no direction that faces Mecca for more than a couple of seconds.  I imagine the Muslim residents would simply pick a direction relative to the space station itself, but the standard rules of Islam would offer no guidance.

Quote Of course there is.  Even though the sun does not rise/set, does not mean it does not have high and low points.  Those points can be calculated.

The high and low points would give you midday and midnight, not sunrise and sunset.  I don't see how that helps.

Quote My point is that this situation did not even arise until quite recently.  Hence, it is a "rare situation".  Not only that, but if affects a very small number of people.

It seems to me that a religion that doesn't account for all situations, however rare, would by definition be imperfect.

Quote Um, they have.  Why else do you think they didn't tell these people to fast continuously from sunrise to sunset, regardless of how long it was? Confused  It's an obvious health issue!

Making up the fasts afterwards is also an option.  That is the point.  Islam provides a lot of flexibility, more so than many people are willing to admit.

In some cases at least, making up the fast afterwards is the only option.  In Grise Fiord, for instance, the sun rises in May and doesn't set until August.  That's reality.  Nothing in the Quran or Hadith say you can make up your own sunrise/set times if you don't like the real ones.  It's hard to argue that the sun has set if you're looking right at it.
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
Back to Top
islamispeace View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 2187
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islamispeace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2014 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

One can account for all possible scenarios without specifically mentioning each.  For instance, one can say "All men must fast", without specifying that Canadians must fast and Americans must fast and Mexicans must fast...


But then this surely applies to the issue at hand.  The Quran and Sunnah make it clear that under extreme situations (without mentioning every single situation), estimating the time of prayer and (by default) fasting, is allowed.   

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

It makes no difference to me, but I think it ought to matter to you.  The Quran says to obey the Prophet (which IMHO is problematic in itself), but it says nothing about obeying "scholars".  It seems to me that Muslims have drifted into shirk, in so many ways.


Well then you should probably read the Quran before making inaccurate statements.  The Quran states:

"O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination." (Suran An-Nisa, 4:59)

So, the ridiculous claim that listening to scholars somehow constitutes "shirk" is simply not true.  Of course, if any "scholar" were to tell Muslims to disobey Allah and His Messenger, Muslims would be under no obligation to obey such a scholar, but as we have seen already, the scholarly opinions regarding the issue of fasting are based on the general rules in the Quran and Sunnah. 

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

Thanks for the link.  Yes, I don't know why I didn't consider the Russian space program.  However, I had in mind a more long-term residential space station, one which spins to simulate gravity.  There would be no direction that faces Mecca for more than a couple of seconds.  I imagine the Muslim residents would simply pick a direction relative to the space station itself, but the standard rules of Islam would offer no guidance.


Actually they would.  I don't know why you keep making inaccurate statements about the "rules of Islam" when you obviously don't know much about them.  This is why I stated before how, in the post 9/11 world, it seems there are all sorts of non-Muslims who have made themselves into "experts" on Islam but who don't know much, if anything, about it.

It has been established in the Sunnah that, depending on the situation, a person who was riding on an animal did not necessarily have to face the Qiblah if the situation did not allow it.  For example, there is the "Salat al-Khauf" (Prayer of Fear), which is made when one is traveling in a dangerous situation and the time for an obligatory prayer comes. 

"Narrated Nafi': Whenever 'Abdullah bin 'Umar was asked about Salat-al-Khauf (i.e. prayer of fear) he said, "The Imam comes forward with a group of people and leads them in a one Rak'a prayer while another group from them who has not prayed yet, stay between the praying group and the enemy. When those who are with the Imam have finished their one Rak'a, they retreat and take the positions of those who have not prayed but they will not finish their prayers with Taslim. Those who have not prayed, come forward to offer a Rak'a with the Imam (while the first group covers them from the enemy). Then the Imam, having offered two Rakat, finishes his prayer. Then each member of the two groups offer the second Rak'a alone after the Imam has finished his prayer. Thus each one of the two groups will have offered two Rakat. But if the fear is too great, they can pray standing on their feet or riding on their mounts, facing the Qibla or not." Nafi added: I do not think that 'Abdullah bin 'Umar narrated this except from Allah's Apostle." (Sahih Bukhari, Book 60, Number 59)

It is also known that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) used to offer the optional prayers while mounted on an animal regardless of the direction he was facing, but when it was time for one of the obligatory prayers, he would dismount and face Mecca.  But again, in times of danger or fear, it was allowed to pray on the animal regardless of the direction.  As I said before, it is the intention which counts.  It is stated in a hadith:

"Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab: I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The reward of deeds depends upon the intentions and every person will get the reward according to what he has intended." (Sahih Bukhari, Book 1, Number 1)

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

The high and low points would give you midday and midnight, not sunrise and sunset.  I don't see how that helps.


Well, when the sun is past its highest point, that is the time for Zuhr prayer.  So again, it is possible to calculate the times.  Also, the 5 daily prayers are to be made in a 24-hour period and given the precedence already established by the ahadith about estimating prayer times, it is not at all as big an issue as you or TG12345 are making it out to be.   

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

It seems to me that a religion that doesn't account for all situations, however rare, would by definition be imperfect.
 

It seems to me that this is just a slippery slope argument.  Moreover, the rules of Islam allow for flexibility to pretty much every situation, as we have seen.

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

In some cases at least, making up the fast afterwards is the only option.  In Grise Fiord, for instance, the sun rises in May and doesn't set until August.  That's reality.  Nothing in the Quran or Hadith say you can make up your own sunrise/set times if you don't like the real ones.  It's hard to argue that the sun has set if you're looking right at it.


We already went over this.  Estimating the fasting times or going by the times of the nearest country where such conditions are not present are options as well, so I have no idea where you are getting the idea that making up the fast is the "only" option.  It is certainly one option but not the only one.  Yet another option is to feed poor people.


Edited by islamispeace - 17 June 2014 at 1:27pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 345
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.