Questions about Ramadan fast

TG12345 wrote: So you are saying that the instruction to start fasting based on when one sees the sun rise and to end based on it setting, is an allegory? For what? I agree that we should strive to obey God no matter what. However, the instructions given to all Muslims by the Quran's author, make it impossible to fast for some. And it isn't like he didn't think of exemptions. He thought of the pregnant and nursing and menstruating and sick and traveling and elderly. He just didn't think of the people up north. He couldn't have done so, since he didn't know about them.

Quranexplorer wrote: The point is of faith which is a pre-condition for fasting. Those with faith will take right cues from the teachings even if it does not exactly fit to their conditions and obey Allah and those without faith will look for excuses to create dissension just like you.

I have faith in God, but not how the Quran described Him. Where does the Quran instruct Muslims to change God's instructions for them?
 

TG12345 wrote: If I were to tell you that a major historical event (drowning death of a Pharaoh, destruction of his buildings) happened that has absolutely no documentation for it, would you take my word for it?

Quranexplorer wrote: As I already mentioned, these kind of general �feelings� or �opinions� does not stand unless you have solid proofs to establish it authentically.

The same can be said about the "feeling" or "opinion" that there was a Pharaoh who believed he was the only god for his subjects, who drowned in the sea, and who had his buildings destroyed by God.

There are no solid proofs to establish that any of this ever happened.

Quranexplorer wrote:  Be specific and if you have proofs establishing that all the events of that period are well recorded except this particular one, maybe we have something to discuss. Can you?

Of course all the events in that period were not well recorded. You won't find any period in history where all the events were recorded.

Going by your reasoning, one can make any historical claim they want and it won't be possible to refute it. Especially for events prior to the 20th century.

I therefore could say - according to your reasoning- that God gave an automobile to a noble Scottish leader in the 13th century. We don't know everything about Scotland or the world during that time, do we? Does this mean that my statement can not be disproved?

TG12345 wrote: Or that tens of thousands of people, across all ages and on all continents, since the beginning of humanity, all preached that God is a Trinity?

Quranexplorer wrote: Quran has answered this for you 1400 years ago: Al-Baqara 2:170 And when it is said unto them: Follow that which Allah hath revealed, they say: We follow that wherein we found our fathers. What! Even though their fathers were wholly unintelligent and had no guidance? And you are wrong to state "since the beginning of humanity" as the false idea of "Trinity" by some people only started after the time of prophet Jesus (pbuh) and the following Quranic verses clearly points at the silliness of such people trying to join this idea of "Trinity" to prophets before Jesus (pbuh): Al-E-Imran 3:65-67 O People of the Scripture! Why will ye argue about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have ye then no sense? (65) Lo! ye are those who argue about that whereof ye have some knowledge: Why then argue ye concerning that whereof ye have no knowledge? Allah knoweth. Ye know not. (66) Abraham was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright man who had surrendered (to Allah), and he was not of the idolaters. (67)

Going by your argument, this is nothing more than "opinion" and "feelings". We don't have all of the information of Abraham's historic period or that of before him. So you couldn't argue that he did not say that God is a Trinity. Do you see how faulty the reasoning you are presenting is?

TG12345 wrote: Or that there is a giant magic cross that a mighty warrior set up somewhere on a mountain that, during the End of the World, will provide healing from wounds to all who touch it? You would accept these statements at face value? What solid proofs could you provide that they are wrong, other than that they contradict everything we know about history?

Quranexplorer wrote: As I already mentioned, these kind of general �feelings� or �opinions� does not stand unless you have solid proofs to establish it as right or wrong. Lets� not talk about things like �face value� and stuff like that which are very subjective, something of face value to you will not be of face value to me, hope you get the point.

Of course, so that is why when we make historical claims, we need to look for evidence. We need to see if there is evidence that backs up the claim we are making. Granted, this isn't always possible. We also need to look at what we know about the time period we are discussing, and see if our statements are in accordance with what is known about that time.

For example, while there is no way to disprove the statement that there was once a noble 13th century Scottish warrior who was given a car by God, we do know that automobiles were not invented until the late 19th century. There is no evidence of anyone in the 13th century driving cars, or anyone doing so for the next 700 or so years. Therefore, it would be highly improbable to state that any person living that long ago would have had a car. Do you see what I am getting to? 

Quranexplorer wrote: So do you mean to suggest you will accept something only if it is testified by history? The Malaysian airplane that went missing with so many passengers is still not traceable. So going by your logic, if we fail to find any trace of it, it will go as a non event in history i.e. no such plane ever existed???

Of course there is evidence of this plane existing. We have receipts of people who got on the plane. We have evidence of relatives grieving for their missing ones. We have officials describing what kind of plane it was and trying to figure out what happened to it. We have tons of evidence that this plane exists, or has existed.

I'm afraid your analogy isn't a very effective one.

Quranexplorer wrote: I have already conveyed this point in other posts that any of human tools including science or human reason have their limitations and something if does not fit in to your reason does not mean that it is wrong.

Therefore you have no grounds to criticize God existing as a Trinity, or anything else the Bible teaches.

You also, going by this reasoning, cannot state that it is wrong that hundreds of thousands of people from the beginning of mankind taught that God exists as a Trinity (the Bible does not teach that, btw and I don't believe that people did that, but I am just giving an example).

TG12345 wrote: Yes, the Bible is not free from errors. There are additions that some people have made to it, and people have wrote events in it that did not take place and ascribed some things to God that He could not have said and done. I admit this. It took me several years to realize this, but unfortunately it is true. This does not mean that the Quran is true. There are mistakes in the Bible. There are also mistakes in the Quran.

Quranexplorer wrote: Good, now let�s get in to something that makes sense. As you also have agreed, the Bible we see today has been corrupted by human hands, seriously undermining its authenticity as the words from God. And you cannot ignore the argument that the very foundation of Christianity �God�s Trinity� itself is an addition made by the same people who made such changes to suit their plans.

We can't disprove that God is a Trinity. We can disprove some things that are in the Bible, but not all. Actually, going by your reasoning, we can't disprove anything that exists in it, because science and human reasoning and historical knowledge all have their limitations. So unless you change your premise that it is necessary to have historical knowledge about everything that took place in a certain period of time, any criticism of the Bible you present has no leg to stand on.

Quranexplorer wrote: Whereas, the Quran is absolutely free of any such mistakes or additions just because of the fact that there has been no human intervention in it. None of the points you mentioned here based on your �feelings� stand as a mistake. I am happy to discuss if you have something specific based on established verifiable facts.

The Quran is not absolutely free from errors.

There was no Pharaoh who believed he was the only god his people had,  who drowned in the sea, and who had his buildings destroyed by God.

The Thamud did not carve homes out of mountains.

Chain mail was not around at the time of David, it was invented 700 years later, in Europe.

It is not true that bodies of salty and fresh water do not "transgress" when they meet.

Jesus was crucified. Early Christian as well as non-Christian historical sources attest to this.

Quranexplorer wrote: The best answer to people like you who tries to create dissension on such trivial issues is already in Quran: Al-E-Imran 3:7 He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed. Someone who is on right path by Allah, whether he is in north, south, moon or in space will find a way to obey Allah because what really matters is the �Niyyat� or the intention he has in his mind followed by his sincere action. He will not be worried about whether the sun stays for 10 days or 100 days but will find the right way to perform his fast and it is between him and Allah on acceptance of his fast.

So you are saying that the instruction to start fasting based on when one sees the sun rise and to end based on it setting, is an allegory? For what?

I agree that we should strive to obey God no matter what. However, the instructions given to all Muslims by the Quran's author, make it impossible to fast for some. And it isn't like he didn't think of exemptions. He thought of the pregnant and nursing and menstruating and sick and traveling and elderly. He just didn't think of the people up north. He couldn't have done so, since he didn't know about them.

TG12345 wrote: Speaking of logic...- how logical is the teaching that there is a huge iron wall somewhere in the mountains, that was built by a warrior, and behind whom is hiding a fierce nation that will be composed of trillions of people (they'll allegedly outnumber Muslims 999-1 on the Day of Resurrection) who are just waiting to rush out and attack everyone?- how logical is the teaching that God sent down tens of thousands of messengers preaching monotheism that is in line with what Islam teaches, but there is no trace of the existence of such people anywhere outside the middle east?- how logical is the teaching that there was a Pharaoh who believed he is the only god his people worshiped, and who drowned in the Red Sea while pursuing runaway slaves and afterwards has his buildings destroyed... yet there is absolutely no historical record of such events ever happening? The story of Moses and the Pharaoh is found both in the Quran and Bible.- how logical is the teaching that God taught David how to make chain mail made up of iron linked together, when such armour did not exist anywhere in the world until the third or fourth century BC?If you were to use logic, you would realize that the Quran contains many mistakes. May God bless you with this gift and may you find Him one day.

Quranexplorer wrote: Coming to your logic, of what value is your logic on these matters when there are many things in the natural world which are beyond the best of human logic. If something is beyond your logic does not mean it is wrong, unless you can absolutely establish it as wrong with solid proofs.

If I were to tell you that a major historical event (drowning death of a Pharaoh, destruction of his buildings) happened that has absolutely no documentation for it, would you take my word for it?

What if I told you that Napoleon flew in a helicopter?

Or that tens of thousands of people, across all ages and on all continents, since the beginning of humanity, all preached that God is a Trinity?

Or that there is a giant magic cross that a mighty warrior set up somewhere on a mountain that, during the End of the World, will provide healing from wounds to all who touch it?
 
You would accept these statements at face value? What solid proofs could you provide that they are wrong, other than that they contradict everything we know about history?

Quranexplorer wrote: There are more serious things for people to think like how can men still follow books that have been corrupted to conceal truth with falsehood (don�t know how many versions 66 or 73 or more) when truth has become manifest from Allah through Quran which remains same and stands the test of time on all the counts: Al-E-Imran 3:45-49 (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah). (45) He will speak unto mankind in his cradle and in his manhood, and he is of the righteous. (46) She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is. (47) And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel, (48) And will make him a messenger unto the Children of Israel, (saying): Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird, by Allah's leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah's leave. And I announce unto you what ye eat and what ye store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you, if ye are to be believers.

Yes, the Bible is not free from errors. There are additions that some people have made to it, and people have wrote events in it that did not take place and ascribed some things to God that He could not have said and done. I admit this. It took me several years to realize this, but unfortunately it is true.

This does not mean that the Quran is true. There are mistakes in the Bible. There are also mistakes in the Quran.

"

Abu Loren wrote: *** You are on IGNORE for being really S T U P I D***

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....

typed the furious thirteen year old girl on Facebook, before logging out and going to Itunes to pull up and listen to her favourite Justin Bieber song.



Edited by TG12345 - 10 June 2014 at 5:11am

TG12345 wrote: You have been unable to answer my counterarguments. Why did the Quran's author and Muhammad provide exemptions to all kinds of people from fasting, but leave the situation of Muslims up north to "human logic"? And why tell Muslims to refer to the Quran and Muhammad if they disagree with each other over an issue, when they both tell Muslims up north - who do disagree over when to fast- to do something that is impossible to achieve during Ramadan? You can laugh all you want. The joke's on you.

Abu Loren wrote: A hole I've answered your questions.

What is "a hole"? Don't worry, I get it. You are trying to express your anger at the fact that you are unable to explain away an error in the Quran and hadiths, and you want to swear but you are afraid of breaking the rules so you try saying something that sounds similar and will help you save face. Teenagers do that in the classroom all the time.

Abu Loren wrote: So you want God Almighty and His messenger to specifically mention in the Qur'an and Hadiths that "People in Inuik can do what they like with regard to fasting"?

Why not?

The Quran's author and Muhammad gave exemptions to all kinds of people, why not people living up north? Do they count less than travelers and the elderly and the sick and women who are in labour or menstruating or nursing?

Unless, of course, the Quran's author had no idea that such parts of the world exist.

Abu Loren wrote: They follow the Meccan time line.

Some do that, and others follow the timeline of the nearest location where the sun rises and sets. Both options are backed by different Muslim organizations, so there is clearly a disagreement.

There is no unanimity on how to deal with the issue, which is becoming more pressing as more Muslim immigrants find their way to sparsely inhabited areas near the Arctic.

In Alaska, the Islamic Community Center of Anchorage, "after consultation with scholars," advises Muslims to follow the fasting hours of Mecca, Islam's holiest city.

The Dublin-based European Council for Fatwa and Research, however, said Muslims need to follow the local sunrise and sunset, even up north.

"The debate on how to do this in the north has been on going on for a few years," said Omar Mustafa, the chairman of the Islamic Association of Sweden. "We fast according to the sun. As long as it is possible to tell dusk from dawn. This applies to 90 per cent of Sweden's Muslims."

The few Muslims who live so far north that they are awash in 24-hour daylight should follow the daylight hours the closest city in Sweden where you can tell dawn from dusk, he said, noting that it's permitted to break the fast for health reasons.

Now what does the Quran's author tell Muslims to do if there is disagreement between them?

They are to refer to the him and Muhammad- both of whom tell Muslims to start the fast when they see dawn and to end it when the sun goes down.

So we are back to where we started from. The Quran's author and Muhammad give Muslims up north rules for fasting that they are forced to change in order to survive.

Abu Loren wrote: I pray to God Almighty that He gives you LOGIC.

Does the Quran teach that people are to make religious decisions based on their logic?

Or are you supposed to follow the Quran and Muhammad and religious authorities... and when there is a disagreement, refer to the Quran and Muhammad?

I'll let the Quran's author answer that one for you.

4:59

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

Speaking of logic...

- how logical is the teaching that there is a huge iron wall somewhere in the mountains, that was built by a warrior, and behind whom is hiding a fierce nation that will be composed of trillions of people (they'll allegedly outnumber Muslims 999-1 on the Day of Resurrection) who are just waiting to rush out and attack everyone?

- how logical is the teaching that God sent down tens of thousands of messengers preaching monotheism that is in line with what Islam teaches, but there is no trace of the existence of such people anywhere outside the middle east?

- how logical is the teaching that there was a Pharaoh who believed he is the only god his people worshiped, and who drowned in the Red Sea while pursuing runaway slaves and afterwards has his buildings destroyed... yet there is absolutely no historical record of such events ever happening? The story of Moses and the Pharaoh is found both in the Quran and Bible.

- how logical is the teaching that God taught David how to make chain mail made up of iron linked together, when such armour did not exist anywhere in the world until the third or fourth century BC?


If you were to use logic, you would realize that the Quran contains many mistakes. May God bless you with this gift and may you find Him one day.


Edited by TG12345 - 09 June 2014 at 4:52pm