IslamiCity.org Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > General > General Discussion
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Questions about Ramadan fast  What is Islam What is Islam  Donate Donate
  FAQ FAQ  Quran Search Quran Search  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Questions about Ramadan fast

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 5>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
islamispeace View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 2187
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islamispeace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Questions about Ramadan fast
    Posted: 17 June 2014 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

One can account for all possible scenarios without specifically mentioning each.  For instance, one can say "All men must fast", without specifying that Canadians must fast and Americans must fast and Mexicans must fast...


But then this surely applies to the issue at hand.  The Quran and Sunnah make it clear that under extreme situations (without mentioning every single situation), estimating the time of prayer and (by default) fasting, is allowed.   

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

It makes no difference to me, but I think it ought to matter to you.  The Quran says to obey the Prophet (which IMHO is problematic in itself), but it says nothing about obeying "scholars".  It seems to me that Muslims have drifted into shirk, in so many ways.


Well then you should probably read the Quran before making inaccurate statements.  The Quran states:

"O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination." (Suran An-Nisa, 4:59)

So, the ridiculous claim that listening to scholars somehow constitutes "shirk" is simply not true.  Of course, if any "scholar" were to tell Muslims to disobey Allah and His Messenger, Muslims would be under no obligation to obey such a scholar, but as we have seen already, the scholarly opinions regarding the issue of fasting are based on the general rules in the Quran and Sunnah. 

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

Thanks for the link.  Yes, I don't know why I didn't consider the Russian space program.  However, I had in mind a more long-term residential space station, one which spins to simulate gravity.  There would be no direction that faces Mecca for more than a couple of seconds.  I imagine the Muslim residents would simply pick a direction relative to the space station itself, but the standard rules of Islam would offer no guidance.


Actually they would.  I don't know why you keep making inaccurate statements about the "rules of Islam" when you obviously don't know much about them.  This is why I stated before how, in the post 9/11 world, it seems there are all sorts of non-Muslims who have made themselves into "experts" on Islam but who don't know much, if anything, about it.

It has been established in the Sunnah that, depending on the situation, a person who was riding on an animal did not necessarily have to face the Qiblah if the situation did not allow it.  For example, there is the "Salat al-Khauf" (Prayer of Fear), which is made when one is traveling in a dangerous situation and the time for an obligatory prayer comes. 

"Narrated Nafi': Whenever 'Abdullah bin 'Umar was asked about Salat-al-Khauf (i.e. prayer of fear) he said, "The Imam comes forward with a group of people and leads them in a one Rak'a prayer while another group from them who has not prayed yet, stay between the praying group and the enemy. When those who are with the Imam have finished their one Rak'a, they retreat and take the positions of those who have not prayed but they will not finish their prayers with Taslim. Those who have not prayed, come forward to offer a Rak'a with the Imam (while the first group covers them from the enemy). Then the Imam, having offered two Rakat, finishes his prayer. Then each member of the two groups offer the second Rak'a alone after the Imam has finished his prayer. Thus each one of the two groups will have offered two Rakat. But if the fear is too great, they can pray standing on their feet or riding on their mounts, facing the Qibla or not." Nafi added: I do not think that 'Abdullah bin 'Umar narrated this except from Allah's Apostle." (Sahih Bukhari, Book 60, Number 59)

It is also known that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) used to offer the optional prayers while mounted on an animal regardless of the direction he was facing, but when it was time for one of the obligatory prayers, he would dismount and face Mecca.  But again, in times of danger or fear, it was allowed to pray on the animal regardless of the direction.  As I said before, it is the intention which counts.  It is stated in a hadith:

"Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab: I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The reward of deeds depends upon the intentions and every person will get the reward according to what he has intended." (Sahih Bukhari, Book 1, Number 1)

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

The high and low points would give you midday and midnight, not sunrise and sunset.  I don't see how that helps.


Well, when the sun is past its highest point, that is the time for Zuhr prayer.  So again, it is possible to calculate the times.  Also, the 5 daily prayers are to be made in a 24-hour period and given the precedence already established by the ahadith about estimating prayer times, it is not at all as big an issue as you or TG12345 are making it out to be.   

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

It seems to me that a religion that doesn't account for all situations, however rare, would by definition be imperfect.
 

It seems to me that this is just a slippery slope argument.  Moreover, the rules of Islam allow for flexibility to pretty much every situation, as we have seen.

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

In some cases at least, making up the fast afterwards is the only option.  In Grise Fiord, for instance, the sun rises in May and doesn't set until August.  That's reality.  Nothing in the Quran or Hadith say you can make up your own sunrise/set times if you don't like the real ones.  It's hard to argue that the sun has set if you're looking right at it.


We already went over this.  Estimating the fasting times or going by the times of the nearest country where such conditions are not present are options as well, so I have no idea where you are getting the idea that making up the fast is the "only" option.  It is certainly one option but not the only one.  Yet another option is to feed poor people.


Edited by islamispeace - 17 June 2014 at 1:27pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

Back to Top
Ron Webb View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Male atheist
Joined: 30 January 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 2467
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 June 2014 at 10:23am

Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:

You seem to be contradicting yourself.  First you say that "not every scenario need be specifically mentioned" but then you say "surely every possible scenario should be accounted for".  What's the difference?

 
One can account for all possible scenarios without specifically mentioning each.  For instance, one can say "All men must fast", without specifying that Canadians must fast and Americans must fast and Mexicans must fast...
 
Quote The scholars were not "disagree[ing] with the Quran and the Hadith".  In fact, they specifically based their views on both, as we have seen already.

According to Muhammad, the fast ends when the sun sets.  Anyone who says they can break their fast while the sun is still above the horizon is contradicting Muhammad.

Quote Finally, since you feel you are in a position to question who these scholars think they are "that they can amend the Quran...", it would be equally fair to ask who you think you are to question Islamic scholars for interpreting the Quran based on new and "unanticipated circumstances"?  You are not even a Muslim, so what difference does it make to you how Muslims interpret the rules of their religion with regard to fasting?

It makes no difference to me, but I think it ought to matter to you.  The Quran says to obey the Prophet (which IMHO is problematic in itself), but it says nothing about obeying "scholars".  It seems to me that Muslims have drifted into shirk, in so many ways.

Quote Simply facing toward the earth would be sufficient.  It is a person's intentions which count, especially when control of the situation is out of the person's hands.

By the way, Muslims have been participating in space travel already and have considered the issue of praying in space.

http://muslimvillage.com/2012/02/16/19699/muslim-astronauts-miracle-call-to-prayer-in-space/

Thanks for the link.  Yes, I don't know why I didn't consider the Russian space program.  However, I had in mind a more long-term residential space station, one which spins to simulate gravity.  There would be no direction that faces Mecca for more than a couple of seconds.  I imagine the Muslim residents would simply pick a direction relative to the space station itself, but the standard rules of Islam would offer no guidance.

Quote Of course there is.  Even though the sun does not rise/set, does not mean it does not have high and low points.  Those points can be calculated.

The high and low points would give you midday and midnight, not sunrise and sunset.  I don't see how that helps.

Quote My point is that this situation did not even arise until quite recently.  Hence, it is a "rare situation".  Not only that, but if affects a very small number of people.

It seems to me that a religion that doesn't account for all situations, however rare, would by definition be imperfect.

Quote Um, they have.  Why else do you think they didn't tell these people to fast continuously from sunrise to sunset, regardless of how long it was? Confused  It's an obvious health issue!

Making up the fasts afterwards is also an option.  That is the point.  Islam provides a lot of flexibility, more so than many people are willing to admit.

In some cases at least, making up the fast afterwards is the only option.  In Grise Fiord, for instance, the sun rises in May and doesn't set until August.  That's reality.  Nothing in the Quran or Hadith say you can make up your own sunrise/set times if you don't like the real ones.  It's hard to argue that the sun has set if you're looking right at it.
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
Back to Top
islamispeace View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 2187
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islamispeace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 June 2014 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

I thought that everything was explained in detail in the Quran (6:114), and nothing was omitted (6:38).  Granted, not every scenario need be specifically mentioned, but surely every possible scenario should be accounted for.  As far as I can see, there is nothing that accounts for a scenario where the sun remains continuously below the horizon for weeks.


You seem to be contradicting yourself.  First you say that "not every scenario need be specifically mentioned" but then you say "surely every possible scenario should be accounted for".  What's the difference? 

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

I think the point is not that they disagree with TG12345.  The point is that they disagree with the Quran and the Hadith.  Who are these scholars that think they can amend the Quran as needed for unanticipated circumstances?
 

I wasn't referring to whether they disagreed with TG12345.  Why would that matter to me?

The scholars were not "disagree[ing] with the Quran and the Hadith".  In fact, they specifically based their views on both, as we have seen already.

Finally, since you feel you are in a position to question who these scholars think they are "that they can amend the Quran...", it would be equally fair to ask who you think you are to question Islamic scholars for interpreting the Quran based on new and "unanticipated circumstances"?  You are not even a Muslim, so what difference does it make to you how Muslims interpret the rules of their religion with regard to fasting?  In any case, as we have already seen, none of the scholars were basing their views on their own opinions but rather used the Quran and AHadith to come to their conclusions.

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

It will be interesting when Muslims start participating in space travel (if they ever do).  How do you face Mecca in a spacecraft or space station that is rotating several times a second?


Simply facing toward the earth would be sufficient.  It is a person's intentions which count, especially when control of the situation is out of the person's hands. 

By the way, Muslims have been participating in space travel already and have considered the issue of praying in space. 

http://muslimvillage.com/2012/02/16/19699/muslim-astronauts-miracle-call-to-prayer-in-space/


Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

It's not a question of estimating the time of sunrise or sunset.  It's not a matter of merely not being able to see the event.  The fact is that the sun does not rise/set at all at these locations.  There is nothing to estimate.


Of course there is.  Even though the sun does not rise/set, does not mean it does not have high and low points.  Those points can be calculated. 

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

It's not a rare situation to those who live there.  The fact is that one cannot live according to the rules of Islam above the Arctic Circle.  Maybe that's Allah's intention -- maybe nobody should be living there.  If so, do your scholars think they can overrule Allah by inventing rules not in the Quran?
    

My point is that this situation did not even arise until quite recently.  Hence, it is a "rare situation".  Not only that, but if affects a very small number of people. 

And to repeat what I said before, "[my] scholars" have not "overruled" Allah at all since they have based their views on the general guidelines outlined in the Quran and the Sunnah.  In fact, it seems that some non-Muslims think they have the moral authority to overrule Muslims and offer their own "opinions" on matters that don't even concern them.  Now that's a sight!  Of course, in the post-9/11 world, there have already been many self-proclaimed non-Muslim "scholars" who have decided that they know best about what Islam teaches, so I am certainly not surprised!  LOL

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

That's a good suggestion.  (I wonder why your scholars didn't think of that?)  However,  if that is the case, then Muslims would presumably be forbidden to fast at all during Ramadan, not given liberty to invent fictitious sunrise/set times; and they would have to make up the missed days afterwards.


Um, they have.  Why else do you think they didn't tell these people to fast continuously from sunrise to sunset, regardless of how long it was? Confused  It's an obvious health issue!

Making up the fasts afterwards is also an option.  That is the point.  Islam provides a lot of flexibility, more so than many people are willing to admit. 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

Back to Top
Ron Webb View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Male atheist
Joined: 30 January 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 2467
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 June 2014 at 3:34pm
In TG12345's absence, I'd like to offer a few comments:
Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:

First of all, you are not in a position to tell Muslims how they can interpret the rules set down in the Quran and Ahadith.  Second, as I explained in my post, general rules were set down to apply to extenuating circumstances.  The Quran is under no obligation to mention every single specific or possible scenario.  What it did is provide basic rules as well as exemptions.

I thought that everything was explained in detail in the Quran (6:114), and nothing was omitted (6:38).  Granted, not every scenario need be specifically mentioned, but surely every possible scenario should be accounted for.  As far as I can see, there is nothing that accounts for a scenario where the sun remains continuously below the horizon for weeks.

Quote That's nice, but this is a minor disagreement.  The point is that scholars are unanimous that in extenuating circumstances, people have options.  Just because they disagree on those options does not change the fact that they agree that there are options.  Your objection is without any merit.

I think the point is not that they disagree with TG12345.  The point is that they disagree with the Quran and the Hadith.  Who are these scholars that think they can amend the Quran as needed for unanticipated circumstances?

It will be interesting when Muslims start participating in space travel (if they ever do).  How do you face Mecca in a spacecraft or space station that is rotating several times a second?

Quote No, what's interesting is that you seem to want to ignore the fact that he made it clear to his followers that under extreme situations, estimating the time of prayer is allowed.  Hence, by default, estimating the time of the fast is also allowed, since the fast depends on the timing of the prayers.

It's not a question of estimating the time of sunrise or sunset.  It's not a matter of merely not being able to see the event.  The fact is that the sun does not rise/set at all at these locations.  There is nothing to estimate.

Quote It makes a huge difference because it is an extremely rare situation.  Your argument that the Quran should have mentioned this extremely rare circumstance is ludicrous.  It's a slippery slope argument.  Next, you will be arguing that the Quran does not explain the rules for praying or fasting on airplanes!

It's not a rare situation to those who live there.  The fact is that one cannot live according to the rules of Islam above the Arctic Circle.  Maybe that's Allah's intention -- maybe nobody should be living there.  If so, do your scholars think they can overrule Allah by inventing rules not in the Quran?

Quote Also, if you think about this objectively, you would realize that the situations in some places in the northern hemisphere have obvious implications for people's health.  The Quran allows for flexibility during the Ramadan fast for health reasons.  Obviously, if the fasting period in some northern locations would be months long, that would be a health hazard for the people living there.  Hence, the provisions on health grounds that the Quran allows can be applied in these cases.

That's a good suggestion.  (I wonder why your scholars didn't think of that?)  However,  if that is the case, then Muslims would presumably be forbidden to fast at all during Ramadan, not given liberty to invent fictitious sunrise/set times; and they would have to make up the missed days afterwards.
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
Back to Top
islamispeace View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 2187
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islamispeace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 June 2014 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:

For the simple reason that Muhammad told people what to do if the moon is covered up, but not if the sun is up all day. Both he and the Quran's author came up with many exemptions for different people, and as we shall see later on, with what Muslims should do in the end times. However, neither of them considered the possibility that there are some parts of the world where the sun does not go down for weeks at a time.


First of all, you are not in a position to tell Muslims how they can interpret the rules set down in the Quran and Ahadith.  Second, as I explained in my post, general rules were set down to apply to extenuating circumstances.  The Quran is under no obligation to mention every single specific or possible scenario.  What it did is provide basic rules as well as exemptions. 

Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:

That's nice, but not all Muslim scholars agree. In 2012 at least, some scholars told Muslims to fast according to Mecca time, and others according to local time, in places where the sun does set. There was a disagreement.


That's nice, but this is a minor disagreement.  The point is that scholars are unanimous that in extenuating circumstances, people have options.  Just because they disagree on those options does not change the fact that they agree that there are options.  Your objection is without any merit.

Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:

The Quran's author tells his followers, that if they are unable to come to an agreement of an issue, to refer it to him and Muhammad.

4:59

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

Tafsir Al Jalalayn

O you who believe, obey God, and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you, that is, rulers, when they command you to obey God and His Messenger. If you should quarrel, disagree, about anything, refer it to God, that is, to His Book, and the Messenger, while he lives, and thereafter [refer] to his Sunna: in other words examine these [disputes] with reference to these two [sources], if you believe in God and the Last Day; that, reference to the two [sources], is better, for you than quarrelling or [adhering to] personal opinions, and more excellent in interpretation, in the end.
http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=4&tAyahNo=59&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Tafsir Ibn Abbas


(O ye who believe!) 'Uthman Ibn Talhah and his fellow believers. (Obey Allah) in that which He has commanded you, (and obey the messenger) in that which he commands you (and those of you who are in authority) the leaders of military expeditions; it also said that this means: the men of sacred knowledge; (and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah) to the Book of Allah (and the messenger) and to the practice of the Messenger (if you are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day) resurrection after death. (That) referring the matter to the Book of Allah and the practice of His Messenger (is better and more seemly in the end).
http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=4&tAyahNo=59&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Tafsir Ibn Qathir

((And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger). Mujahid and several others among the Salaf said that the Ayah means, "(Refer) to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger.'' This is a command from Allah that whatever areas the people dispute about, whether major or minor areas of the religion, they are required to refer to the Qur'an and Sunnah for judgment concerning these disputes. In another Ayah, Allah said,

(And in whatsoever you differ, the decision thereof is with Allah). Therefore, whatever the Book and Sunnah decide and testify to the truth of, then it, is the plain truth. What is beyond truth, save falsehood This is why Allah said, u

(if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day.) meaning, refer the disputes and conflicts that arise between you to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger for judgment. Allah's statement,

(if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. ) indicates that those who do not refer to the Book and Sunnah for judgment in their disputes, are not believers in Allah or the Last Day. Allah said...

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=644&Itemid=59

The scholars in 2012- and the Muslims who needed to know what to do during Ramadan- should have turned to the Quran and Sunnah for judgement. Both of these sources tell Muslims to fast from when they see the sun rise to when it sets.




Its funny you always go to the three tafsirs above, as if they are only sources on the Quran's interpretation.  That just shows the limits of your research capabilities.  Of course, the tafsirs are correct, but I am just pointing out how you always predictably go to these tafsirs because that is all you really know.  

At any rate, the scholars have indeed turned to the Quran and Sunnah, as I have already proven!  They based their opinions on the general rules set down in both sources.  Their opinions carry for more weight than the opinions of a non-Muslim with obvious biases and lack of knowledge on the subject. 

Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:

This is in regards to daily prayer, not to fasting. And it is in regards to the End Times, not ordinary times.
  

With this statement, you have shown your naivete as well as your general ignorance.  As any Muslim knows, the timing of the fast depends on the timing of the prayers.  The fast begins at the time of Fajr prayer and ends at the time of Maghrib prayer.  Anyone with even a basic knowledge of Islam knows this.

Second, your ridiculous argument that the hadith referred to the "end times" is irrelevant since, no matter what time period it is referring to, it proves that Muslims are allowed to estimate the times of the prayers under extenuating circumstances, and scholars have referred to this hadith in that regard.     

Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:

What is interesting is that Muhammad was considerate enough to tell 7th century Muslims what to do when the Dajjal comes (and he hasn't came yet), but left nothing in terms of instruction for 20th century Muslims and Muslims in the first 14 years of the 21st.


No, what's interesting is that you seem to want to ignore the fact that he made it clear to his followers that under extreme situations, estimating the time of prayer is allowed.  Hence, by default, estimating the time of the fast is also allowed, since the fast depends on the timing of the prayers. 

Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:

However, Muhammad was not referring to ordinary days, but to the End Times... after the coming of the Dajjal. He also didn't say anything about how to fast when the sun stays up all day.


Again, this is irrelevant.  What matters is that a general rule has been given.  Not one scholar has objected to using this hadith to prove that estimating prayer and fast times are allowed, simply on the grounds that it refers to "the End times". 

Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:

In "most" locations, yes. But not all.


So what?  The point is that in these locations, it is nevertheless possible to calculate the times, a point you seemed to be completely oblivious to when you first opened this thread. 

Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:

Also, the Quran says nothing about being able to see or not see the "highest" or "lowest" point of the sun. Fasting starts when "the white thread of dawn becomes distinct to you from the black thread of night". Muhammad clarified that the black thread is a reference to the darkness of night and the white thread is a reference to the whiteness of dawn.


How absurd!  The times of the prayers are based on the "highest" and "lowest" points of the sun!  For example, when the sun has passed its zenith (the highest point during the day), that is the time for Zuhr prayer.  When it has set, it is the time for Maghrib.  Obviously, if one cannot see these "points", then calculating them is an option.  Hence, by default, the same can be done for the fasts. 

Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:

What difference does it make how many Muslims are affected?


It makes a huge difference because it is an extremely rare situation.  Your argument that the Quran should have mentioned this extremely rare circumstance is ludicrous.  It's a slippery slope argument.  Next, you will be arguing that the Quran does not explain the rules for praying or fasting on airplanes!

Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:

The fact is that both the Quran's author and Muhammad told Muslims to fast from when they see the whiteness of dawn to when it is dark. In some parts of the Arctic Circle, that is impossible.


And the fact is that these are general rules.  In exceptional circumstances, estimating the time is clearly allowed.  If you want to disagree, that is your problem.  It makes no matter to Muslims since we follow Islam, a religion of practicality.  Practical rules have been set down in the Quran and Ahadith.  Your personal opinions are irrelevant.

Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:

Furthermore, the Quran tells Muslims to refer to Muhammad and the Quran when they are in disagreement over anything. When there were disagreements among scholars in 2012 as to when people in the Arctic Circle should fast, according to the Quran's author, Muslims should have turned to the Quran and Sunnah for judgement. Yet neither Muhammad or the Quran's author came up with any advice for how Muslims living in the Arctic Circle in areas where the sun stays up for weeks on end, should fast.
They have advice for travelers, pregnant women, nursing women, menstruating women, the sick, and the elderly. They have advice for what Muslims are to do when the moon is covered, and for what they are to do when the Dajjal will appear. Yet there is no advice for Muslims living in lands where the sun does not come down.


Answered above.  You weren't even aware of the scholarly views vis a vis the Dajjal hadith when you opened this thread.  Perhaps if you had done some objective research, you would have known.  Now that you do know, you resort to the typical special pleading that has unfortunately become a habit of yours. 

Also, if you think about this objectively, you would realize that the situations in some places in the northern hemisphere have obvious implications for people's health.  The Quran allows for flexibility during the Ramadan fast for health reasons.  Obviously, if the fasting period in some northern locations would be months long, that would be a health hazard for the people living there.  Hence, the provisions on health grounds that the Quran allows can be applied in these cases.

Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:

2:185 is a reference to travelers and the sick. The tafsirs are very clear on that.

Tafsir Al Jalalayn

These days of, the month of Ramadān, wherein the Qur�ān was revealed, from the Preserved Tablet to the earthly heaven on the Night of Ordainment [laylat al-qadr] from Him, a guidance (hudan, �a guidance�, is a circumstantial qualifier), guiding away from error, for the people, and as clear proofs, lucid verses, of the Guidance, the rulings that guide to truth, and, of, the Criterion, that discriminates between truth and falsehood; So let those of you, who are present at the month, fast it and if any of you be sick, or if he be on a journey, then a number of other days (this [concession] has already been mentioned, but it is repeated here to avoid the mistaken impression that it has been abrogated by the comprehensive implication of man shahida, �who are present�). God desires ease for you, and desires not hardship for you, and for this reason He has permitted you the breaking of the fast during illness or travel, [this ease being] the very reason He has commanded you to fast; He supplements [the previous statement with]: and that you fulfil (read tukmilū or tukammilū) the number, of the fasting days of Ramadān, and magnify God, when you have completed them, for having guided you, for having directed you to the principal rites of His religion, and that you might be thankful, to God for this.

http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=2&tAyahNo=185&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Tafsir Ibn Abbas

(The month of Ramadan is) the month in (which was revealed the Qur'an) whereupon Gabriel brought down the entire Qur'an to the first heaven, dictated it to the scribes among the angels (al-safarah) and then took it down to Muhammad (pbuh) day after day, sometimes revealing to him just one, two or three verses and sometimes an entire surah, (a guidance for mankind) the Qur'an elucidates error to people, (and clear proofs of the guidance) in the matter of Religion, (and the Criterion (of right and wrong)) the lawful and the unlawful, the legal rulings, legal punishments and the steering away from doubtful matters. (And whoever of you is present) in settled areas and not travelling, (let him fast the month. And whoever of you is sick) during the month of Ramadan (or on a journey, (let him fast the same) number of days) at another time. (Allah desireth for your ease) He desires for you the dispensation of breaking the fast while on a journey; it is also said that this means: Allah wants you to break the fast when travelling; (He desireth not hardship for you) He does not desire for you the hardship of fasting while travelling; (and (He desireth) that ye should complete the period) that you should fast when you are back in your settlement the same number of days of fast you broke during your travel, (and that ye should magnify Allah for having guided you) as He guided you to His religion and legal dispensation, (and that peradventure ye may be thankful) so that you be thankful for His giving you this dispensation.

http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=2&tAyahNo=185&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2


(Allah intends for you ease, and He does not want to make things difficult for you. (He wants that you) must complete the same number (of days)) means: You were allowed to break the fast while ill, while traveling, and so forth, because Allah wanted to make matters easy for you. He only commanded you to make up for missed days so that you complete the days of one month.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=251

   

We already know the meaning of this verse, so there is no reason to list individual tafsirs on it.  But why did you ignore what Ibn Kathir stated earlier?

"This Ayah indicates that ill persons who are unable to fast or fear harm by fasting, and the traveler, are all allowed to break the fast. When one does not fast in this case, he is obliged to fast other days instead." (http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=253)

So obviously, the difficulty of fasting during the long time periods which occur in the northern areas of the earth would apply here since there would be a legitimate fear of "harm".  Moreover, taken together with the other evidence we have already seen, it is abundantly clear that the people living in these places have various options.  The best is to fast according to the time of the nearest country or location where these conditions are not present. 

Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:

I agree with you however that Allah does know best.
  

Indeed, which is why He has provided exceptions and flexibility to every rule.  All praise is due to Him!
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

Back to Top
TG12345 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Male
Joined: 16 December 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 1146
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TG12345 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 June 2014 at 8:25pm

Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:


The claim that TG has made is that the Quran has committed an "error" by not realizing that there are some regions of the world where fasting would be extremely difficult.  Yet this argument is fallacious for the following reasons.

First, it has already been pointed out that when the crescent moon cannot be sighted due to cloud cover, Muslims are told to "estimate" and complete 30 days of Shaban before beginning Ramadan.  This is proven in the hadith literature:

"Narrated Abdullah bin Umar:

Allah's Apostle mentioned Ramadan and said, "Do not fast unless you see the crescent (of Ramadan), and do not give up fasting till you see the crescent (of Shawwal), but if the sky is overcast (if you cannot see it), then act on estimation (i.e. count Sha'ban as 30 days)."" (Sahih Bukhari, Book 31, Number 130)

So, since estimating is clearly allowed, on what grounds can anyone object to the solutions that Abu Loren and others have suggested (i.e. that people living in places like Alaska can fast based on the timings of Mecca)?

For the simple reason that Muhammad told people what to do if the moon is covered up, but not if the sun is up all day. Both he and the Quran's author came up with many exemptions for different people, and as we shall see later on, with what Muslims should do in the end times. However, neither of them considered the possibility that there are some parts of the world where the sun does not go down for weeks at a time.

Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:

  Another option for these people is to estimate their fasting times based on the time of the nearest country where the sun is visible on a regular basis.  This is the view of many scholars.  Here is an example of a fatwa on this subject:

"We believe that Muslims living near to the North and South poles and what is close to them; in which the days are long and nights short; have two choices when it comes to fasting Ramadan:

- Either to abide by the timings of the countries in which the Islamic legislations appeared and in which day and night hours are in moderation (Mecca and Medina). That is, to fast the same number of hours as these two cities.


-Or to calculate the hours of fasting in the closest country, in which day and night hours are in moderation; and in which the wisdom of Allah Almighty�s decree of Prayers and Fasting is maintained without resulting in too much exhaustion or fatigue.


As it might not be easy to calculate the closest country to Sweden that maintains this status, we are more inclined towards proposing that Muslims who live in Sweden and other countries with the same situation, to fast the exact number of hours that Muslims fast in Mecca and Medina. Taking into factor, that their fasting starts at the time of Fadjr in their location [Sweden, etc.], without taking into account their day and night hours, nor having to wait for sunset or nightfall to stop fasting.


We reached this conclusion in accordance with what scholars pursue when it comes to estimating the timings of Prayers and Fasting and following the orders of Allah and His guidance in the Holy Quran, as Allah in His mercy says: {Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship and [wants] for you to complete the period and to glorify Allah for that [to] which He has guided you; and perhaps you will be grateful.} (Surat Albaqarah 2: 185). Allah Almighty also says: {Allah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity.} (Surat Albaqarah 2: 286)." (http://mission-alnoor.org/Admin/asp/Mailed_details.asp?M_ID=821)


That's nice, but not all Muslim scholars agree. In 2012 at least, some scholars told Muslims to fast according to Mecca time, and others according to local time, in places where the sun does set. There was a disagreement.

There is no unanimity on how to deal with the issue, which is becoming more pressing as more Muslim immigrants find their way to sparsely inhabited areas near the Arctic.

In Alaska, the Islamic Community Center of Anchorage, "after consultation with scholars," advises Muslims to follow the fasting hours of Mecca, Islam's holiest city.

The Dublin-based European Council for Fatwa and Research, however, said Muslims need to follow the local sunrise and sunset, even up north.

"The debate on how to do this in the north has been on going on for a few years," said Omar Mustafa, the chairman of the Islamic Association of Sweden. "We fast according to the sun. As long as it is possible to tell dusk from dawn. This applies to 90 per cent of Sweden's Muslims."

The few Muslims who live so far north that they are awash in 24-hour daylight should follow the daylight hours the closest city in Sweden where you can tell dawn from dusk, he said, noting that it's permitted to break the fast for health reasons.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/07/24/muslims-in-arctic-look-fo_n_1697528.html


The Quran's author tells his followers, that if they are unable to come to an agreement of an issue, to refer it to him and Muhammad.

4:59

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

Tafsir Al Jalalayn

O you who believe, obey God, and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you, that is, rulers, when they command you to obey God and His Messenger. If you should quarrel, disagree, about anything, refer it to God, that is, to His Book, and the Messenger, while he lives, and thereafter [refer] to his Sunna: in other words examine these [disputes] with reference to these two [sources], if you believe in God and the Last Day; that, reference to the two [sources], is better, for you than quarrelling or [adhering to] personal opinions, and more excellent in interpretation, in the end.
http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=4&tAyahNo=59&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Tafsir Ibn Abbas


(O ye who believe!) 'Uthman Ibn Talhah and his fellow believers. (Obey Allah) in that which He has commanded you, (and obey the messenger) in that which he commands you (and those of you who are in authority) the leaders of military expeditions; it also said that this means: the men of sacred knowledge; (and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah) to the Book of Allah (and the messenger) and to the practice of the Messenger (if you are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day) resurrection after death. (That) referring the matter to the Book of Allah and the practice of His Messenger (is better and more seemly in the end).
http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=4&tAyahNo=59&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Tafsir Ibn Qathir

((And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger). Mujahid and several others among the Salaf said that the Ayah means, "(Refer) to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger.'' This is a command from Allah that whatever areas the people dispute about, whether major or minor areas of the religion, they are required to refer to the Qur'an and Sunnah for judgment concerning these disputes. In another Ayah, Allah said,

(And in whatsoever you differ, the decision thereof is with Allah). Therefore, whatever the Book and Sunnah decide and testify to the truth of, then it, is the plain truth. What is beyond truth, save falsehood This is why Allah said, u

(if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day.) meaning, refer the disputes and conflicts that arise between you to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger for judgment. Allah's statement,

(if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. ) indicates that those who do not refer to the Book and Sunnah for judgment in their disputes, are not believers in Allah or the Last Day. Allah said...

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=644&Itemid=59

The scholars in 2012- and the Muslims who needed to know what to do during Ramadan- should have turned to the Quran and Sunnah for judgement. Both of these sources tell Muslims to fast from when they see the sun rise to when it sets.


Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:


Estimating prayers times have also been proven in the hadith literature.  For example, in a hadith about the coming of the Dajjal, it is stated that Muslims should estimate their prayers during the tribulation:

"[...] He (Dajjal) would be a young man with twisted, contracted hair, and a blind eye. I compare him to 'Abd-ul-'Uzza b. Qatan. He who amongst you would survive to see him should recite over him the opening verses of Sura Kahf (xviii.). He would appear on the way between Syria and Iraq and would spread mischief right and left. O servant of Allah! adhere (to the path of Truth). We said: Allah's Messenger, how long would he stay on the earth? He said.. For forty days, one day like a year and one day like a month and one day like a week and the rest of the days would be like your days. We said: Allah's Messenger, would one day's prayer suffice for the prayers of day equal to one year? Thereupon he said: No, but you must make an estimate of time (and then observe prayer). [...]" (Sahih Muslim, Book 41, Number 7015)


This is in regards to daily prayer, not to fasting. And it is in regards to the End Times, not ordinary times.

What is interesting is that Muhammad was considerate enough to tell 7th century Muslims what to do when the Dajjal comes (and he hasn't came yet), but left nothing in terms of instruction for 20th century Muslims and Muslims in the first 14 years of the 21st.

Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:

 
Scholars refer to this hadith as proof that estimating prayers (and fasts) is allowed in extreme situations.  The website "www.islamtoday.com" states:

"All Muslim scholars agree that whenever there is perpetual day or perpetual night for 24 hours or more, the prayer times during the affected days should be approximated. This is because the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "There will come a time when there will be a day like a year, a day like a month, and a day like a week�" The people asked him if during the day like a year, should they offer each prayer only once. He replied: "You should approximate the times." [Sah�h Muslim]" (http://en.islamtoday.net/artshow-384-3955.htm)

Since the timing of prayer and fasting both depend on the position of the sun, and since estimating prayer under extenuating circumstances is clearly established, then the same rules would apply to fasting.  Estimating the time would be perfectly acceptable under the rules of the Sharia.

However, Muhammad was not referring to ordinary days, but to the End Times... after the coming of the Dajjal. He also didn't say anything about how to fast when the sun stays up all day.


Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:

Second, in most inhabited areas near the poles, it is nevertheless possible to calculate the fasting times, so this is another option for people living in these areas.  As the website www.moonsighting.com explains:

"The answer is simpler than what you may think. Polar regions like Norway, Finland, and Alaska have areas where the sun stays below horizon for several months in winter, and stays above horizon for several months in summer. However, there comes a time in every day when the sun is at its highset point (Noon) and at lowest point (Midnight). At temperate latitudes, the highest point is visible but lowest point is below horizon. But at higher latitudes (Polar region, like Norway, Finland, and Alaska) the highest and lowest point occur below horizon in winter (meaning several months long night), and above horizon in summer when the sun never sets for several months (meaning several months long day). But we can calculate those two points and determine Prayer times around those two known times every day. Having determined the prayer times, the fasting time is already set. " (http://moonsighting.com/faq_pt.html#G2)

The website also provides a chart (which is too big to paste here), which shows that in most locations, it is still possible, using the calculations, to determine the fasting times.  While some of these times can be rather long, almost 24 hours in some cases, they are still within the capacity of most people to do. 

In "most" locations, yes. But not all.

Also, the Quran says nothing about being able to see or not see the "highest" or "lowest" point of the sun. Fasting starts when "the white thread of dawn becomes distinct to you from the black thread of night". Muhammad clarified that the black thread is a reference to the darkness of night and the white thread is a reference to the whiteness of dawn.


Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:

 
Finally, it should be stated that these rulings apply to highly irregular and rare circumstances which affect a very small number of Muslims.  These situations didn't even surface until quite recently.  To claim that it is a major "error" is like claiming that since the Quran does not mention rulings on things like praying on airplanes it is somehow an "error".  That is specious and childish reasoning at best.   

What difference does it make how many Muslims are affected?

The fact is that both the Quran's author and Muhammad told Muslims to fast from when they see the whiteness of dawn to when it is dark. In some parts of the Arctic Circle, that is impossible.

Furthermore, the Quran tells Muslims to refer to Muhammad and the Quran when they are in disagreement over anything. When there were disagreements among scholars in 2012 as to when people in the Arctic Circle should fast, according to the Quran's author, Muslims should have turned to the Quran and Sunnah for judgement. Yet neither Muhammad or the Quran's author came up with any advice for how Muslims living in the Arctic Circle in areas where the sun stays up for weeks on end, should fast.
They have advice for travelers, pregnant women, nursing women, menstruating women, the sick, and the elderly. They have advice for what Muslims are to do when the moon is covered, and for what they are to do when the Dajjal will appear. Yet there is no advice for Muslims living in lands where the sun does not come down.

Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:

 
Islam is a religion of practicality, which is more than I can say about some other religions.  Under extenuating circumstances, the teachings of the Quran must be taken into account:

"Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (Between right and wrong). So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting, but if any one is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (Should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you; He does not want to put you to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful." (Surah Al-Baqarah, 2:185)

"
So fear Allah as much as ye can; listen and obey and spend in charity for the benefit of your own soul and those saved from the covetousness of their own souls,- they are the ones that achieve prosperity." (Surah At-Taghabun, 64:16)   

Allah knows best!


2:185 is a reference to travelers and the sick. The tafsirs are very clear on that.

Tafsir Al Jalalayn

These days of, the month of Ramadān, wherein the Qur�ān was revealed, from the Preserved Tablet to the earthly heaven on the Night of Ordainment [laylat al-qadr] from Him, a guidance (hudan, �a guidance�, is a circumstantial qualifier), guiding away from error, for the people, and as clear proofs, lucid verses, of the Guidance, the rulings that guide to truth, and, of, the Criterion, that discriminates between truth and falsehood; So let those of you, who are present at the month, fast it and if any of you be sick, or if he be on a journey, then a number of other days (this [concession] has already been mentioned, but it is repeated here to avoid the mistaken impression that it has been abrogated by the comprehensive implication of man shahida, �who are present�). God desires ease for you, and desires not hardship for you, and for this reason He has permitted you the breaking of the fast during illness or travel, [this ease being] the very reason He has commanded you to fast; He supplements [the previous statement with]: and that you fulfil (read tukmilū or tukammilū) the number, of the fasting days of Ramadān, and magnify God, when you have completed them, for having guided you, for having directed you to the principal rites of His religion, and that you might be thankful, to God for this.

http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=2&tAyahNo=185&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Tafsir Ibn Abbas

(The month of Ramadan is) the month in (which was revealed the Qur'an) whereupon Gabriel brought down the entire Qur'an to the first heaven, dictated it to the scribes among the angels (al-safarah) and then took it down to Muhammad (pbuh) day after day, sometimes revealing to him just one, two or three verses and sometimes an entire surah, (a guidance for mankind) the Qur'an elucidates error to people, (and clear proofs of the guidance) in the matter of Religion, (and the Criterion (of right and wrong)) the lawful and the unlawful, the legal rulings, legal punishments and the steering away from doubtful matters. (And whoever of you is present) in settled areas and not travelling, (let him fast the month. And whoever of you is sick) during the month of Ramadan (or on a journey, (let him fast the same) number of days) at another time. (Allah desireth for your ease) He desires for you the dispensation of breaking the fast while on a journey; it is also said that this means: Allah wants you to break the fast when travelling; (He desireth not hardship for you) He does not desire for you the hardship of fasting while travelling; (and (He desireth) that ye should complete the period) that you should fast when you are back in your settlement the same number of days of fast you broke during your travel, (and that ye should magnify Allah for having guided you) as He guided you to His religion and legal dispensation, (and that peradventure ye may be thankful) so that you be thankful for His giving you this dispensation.

http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=2&tAyahNo=185&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2


(Allah intends for you ease, and He does not want to make things difficult for you. (He wants that you) must complete the same number (of days)) means: You were allowed to break the fast while ill, while traveling, and so forth, because Allah wanted to make matters easy for you. He only commanded you to make up for missed days so that you complete the days of one month.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=251

I agree with you however that Allah does know best.
Back to Top
islamispeace View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 2187
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islamispeace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 June 2014 at 1:31pm
This topic is an interesting one, but what I don't understand is why we seem to have gotten off track.  This topic is about the rules of fasting under extenuating circumstances, so why are people talking about Gog and Magog, Thamud and other issues?  TG12345 started this topic and yet has spent the last few posts talking about completely unrelated issues, which have been dealt with in detail in other places.  For those interested, they can read the following thread where I have responded to TG's claims about "errors" in the Quran as well as pointed out his double standards and hypocrisy with regard to the errors in the Bible:

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28030&PID=185819#185819

He has insisted that while the Bible has errors, it does not mean that either Christianity or the Bible are false, yet he has also insisted that "errors" in other religions somehow invalidate those religions.  That is an interesting example of the pot calling the kettle black and those who are interested in having a discussion on it can do so by going to  the link above.  Let us get back to the topic at hand on this thread.

The claim that TG has made is that the Quran has committed an "error" by not realizing that there are some regions of the world where fasting would be extremely difficult.  Yet this argument is fallacious for the following reasons.

First, it has already been pointed out that when the crescent moon cannot be sighted due to cloud cover, Muslims are told to "estimate" and complete 30 days of Shaban before beginning Ramadan.  This is proven in the hadith literature:

"Narrated Abdullah bin Umar:

Allah's Apostle mentioned Ramadan and said, "Do not fast unless you see the crescent (of Ramadan), and do not give up fasting till you see the crescent (of Shawwal), but if the sky is overcast (if you cannot see it), then act on estimation (i.e. count Sha'ban as 30 days)."" (Sahih Bukhari, Book 31, Number 130)

So, since estimating is clearly allowed, on what grounds can anyone object to the solutions that Abu Loren and others have suggested (i.e. that people living in places like Alaska can fast based on the timings of Mecca)?  Another option for these people is to estimate their fasting times based on the time of the nearest country where the sun is visible on a regular basis.  This is the view of many scholars.  Here is an example of a fatwa on this subject:

"We believe that Muslims living near to the North and South poles and what is close to them; in which the days are long and nights short; have two choices when it comes to fasting Ramadan:

- Either to abide by the timings of the countries in which the Islamic legislations appeared and in which day and night hours are in moderation (Mecca and Medina). That is, to fast the same number of hours as these two cities.


-Or to calculate the hours of fasting in the closest country, in which day and night hours are in moderation; and in which the wisdom of Allah Almighty�s decree of Prayers and Fasting is maintained without resulting in too much exhaustion or fatigue.


As it might not be easy to calculate the closest country to Sweden that maintains this status, we are more inclined towards proposing that Muslims who live in Sweden and other countries with the same situation, to fast the exact number of hours that Muslims fast in Mecca and Medina. Taking into factor, that their fasting starts at the time of Fadjr in their location [Sweden, etc.], without taking into account their day and night hours, nor having to wait for sunset or nightfall to stop fasting.


We reached this conclusion in accordance with what scholars pursue when it comes to estimating the timings of Prayers and Fasting and following the orders of Allah and His guidance in the Holy Quran, as Allah in His mercy says: {Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship and [wants] for you to complete the period and to glorify Allah for that [to] which He has guided you; and perhaps you will be grateful.} (Surat Albaqarah 2: 185). Allah Almighty also says: {Allah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity.} (Surat Albaqarah 2: 286)." (http://mission-alnoor.org/Admin/asp/Mailed_details.asp?M_ID=821)


Estimating prayers times have also been proven in the hadith literature.  For example, in a hadith about the coming of the Dajjal, it is stated that Muslims should estimate their prayers during the tribulation:

"[...]
He (Dajjal) would be a young man with twisted, contracted hair, and a blind eye. I compare him to 'Abd-ul-'Uzza b. Qatan. He who amongst you would survive to see him should recite over him the opening verses of Sura Kahf (xviii.). He would appear on the way between Syria and Iraq and would spread mischief right and left. O servant of Allah! adhere (to the path of Truth). We said: Allah's Messenger, how long would he stay on the earth? He said.. For forty days, one day like a year and one day like a month and one day like a week and the rest of the days would be like your days. We said: Allah's Messenger, would one day's prayer suffice for the prayers of day equal to one year? Thereupon he said: No, but you must make an estimate of time (and then observe prayer). [...]" (Sahih Muslim, Book 41, Number 7015)

Scholars refer to this hadith as proof that estimating prayers (and fasts) is allowed in extreme situations.  The website "www.islamtoday.com" states:

"
All Muslim scholars agree that whenever there is perpetual day or perpetual night for 24 hours or more, the prayer times during the affected days should be approximated. This is because the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "There will come a time when there will be a day like a year, a day like a month, and a day like a week�" The people asked him if during the day like a year, should they offer each prayer only once. He replied: "You should approximate the times." [Sah�h Muslim]" (http://en.islamtoday.net/artshow-384-3955.htm)

Since the timing of prayer and fasting both depend on the position of the sun, and since estimating prayer under extenuating circumstances is clearly established, then the same rules would apply to fasting.  Estimating the time would be perfectly acceptable under the rules of the Sharia.

Second, in most inhabited areas near the poles, it is nevertheless possible to calculate the fasting times, so this is another option for people living in these areas.  As the website www.moonsighting.com explains:

"
The answer is simpler than what you may think. Polar regions like Norway, Finland, and Alaska have areas where the sun stays below horizon for several months in winter, and stays above horizon for several months in summer. However, there comes a time in every day when the sun is at its highset point (Noon) and at lowest point (Midnight). At temperate latitudes, the highest point is visible but lowest point is below horizon. But at higher latitudes (Polar region, like Norway, Finland, and Alaska) the highest and lowest point occur below horizon in winter (meaning several months long night), and above horizon in summer when the sun never sets for several months (meaning several months long day). But we can calculate those two points and determine Prayer times around those two known times every day. Having determined the prayer times, the fasting time is already set. " (http://moonsighting.com/faq_pt.html#G2)

The website also provides a chart (which is too big to paste here), which shows that in most locations, it is still possible, using the calculations, to determine the fasting times.  While some of these times can be rather long, almost 24 hours in some cases, they are still within the capacity of most people to do. 

Finally, it should be stated that these rulings apply to highly irregular and rare circumstances which affect a very small number of Muslims.  These situations didn't even surface until quite recently.  To claim that it is a major "error" is like claiming that since the Quran does not mention rulings on things like praying on airplanes it is somehow an "error".  That is specious and childish reasoning at best.   

Islam is a religion of practicality, which is more than I can say about some other religions.  Under extenuating circumstances, the teachings of the Quran must be taken into account:

"
Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (Between right and wrong). So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting, but if any one is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (Should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you; He does not want to put you to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful." (Surah Al-Baqarah, 2:185)

"
So fear Allah as much as ye can; listen and obey and spend in charity for the benefit of your own soul and those saved from the covetousness of their own souls,- they are the ones that achieve prosperity." (Surah At-Taghabun, 64:16)   

Allah knows best!
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

Back to Top
TG12345 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Male
Joined: 16 December 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 1146
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TG12345 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 June 2014 at 12:47pm
Originally posted by Quranexplorer Quranexplorer wrote:


Of course all the events in that period were not well recorded. You won't find any period in history where all the events were recorded. Going by your reasoning, one can make any historical claim they want and it won't be possible to refute it. Especially for events prior to the 20th century.I therefore could say - according to your reasoning- that God gave an automobile to a noble Scottish leader in the 13th century. We don't know everything about Scotland or the world during that time, do we? Does this mean that my statement can not be disproved?

Originally posted by Quranexplorer Quranexplorer wrote:


Of course you or for that matter anybody can make such statements. But the point is nobody cares about such statements, because the value of a statement depends on the authenticity of the source making the statement.

False. Even a trustworthy source can have false statements.
Originally posted by Quranexplorer Quranexplorer wrote:


 Quran has that kind of an authenticity because of a number of unique characteristics which clearly sets it far above any of human works, including the superior moral lessons,

What moral lessons exist in the Quran that do not exist elsewhere?
Originally posted by Quranexplorer Quranexplorer wrote:


 an unmatched ease in handling a variety of subjects as complex as creation of the universe
What "ease" does the Quran show in handling the creation of the universe? Explain what you mean.

Originally posted by Quranexplorer Quranexplorer wrote:

to matters of our daily life,

What do you mean that it shows "ease" about matters of daily life?

Originally posted by Quranexplorer Quranexplorer wrote:


 an impeccable consistency of facts throughout its verses,

Really? What about the things it says about history that are not only impossible to confirm, but also contradict other historical facts?
Originally posted by Quranexplorer Quranexplorer wrote:


 the fact that it has and will remain the same always, the superior elegance of its language,

There is no evidence for the Quran having been changed, and I don't know Arabic so I can't comment on its language.
Originally posted by Quranexplorer Quranexplorer wrote:


 the sound reasoning it provides on various subjects, and the universal and timeless nature of its message etc.

The last 2 are subjective. The Quran's fasting instructions definitely are not universal, since in some parts of the world they are impossible to follow.

Originally posted by Quranexplorer Quranexplorer wrote:


 So if you want to dispute some statement from Quran, you should have that kind of extraordinary proofs also, not just individual "feelings".

I provide you with sources to back up what I am saying. If they are just "feelings" to you, that's not my problem.
Originally posted by Quranexplorer Quranexplorer wrote:


This discussion can go on and on because any individual can make statements of his choice and unless these are verifiable in some way it doesn�t make any sense and nobody cares about it.

The same is true with many of the historical accounts in the Quran.
Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:


We can't disprove that God is a Trinity. We can disprove some things that are in the Bible, but not all. Actually, going by your reasoning, we can't disprove anything that exists in it, because science and human reasoning and historical knowledge all have their limitations. So unless you change your premise that it is necessary to have historical knowledge about everything that took place in a certain period of time, any criticism of the Bible you present has no leg to stand on.

Originally posted by Quranexplorer Quranexplorer wrote:


I have only said that all human tools have limitations, does not mean that science, human reason or history cannot be used at all to testify things. They can still be used to testify things within their limited realms, but when it come to things beyond their realms we need to look at something superior and that�s where Quran comes as a perfect fit. With some of the impeccable characteristics mentioned above, it gives perfect explanation to everything while being consistent with whatever limited man has been able to understand with all the human tools.

You seem to be saying it is alright to use science, history and reasoning to challenge the Bible but when someone does the same with the Quran, we can't do it because it is "superior".
Originally posted by Quranexplorer Quranexplorer wrote:


But the Bible fails here miserably � its human origin is an established fact and it has many things which are inconsistent with whatever limited information man has been able to understand with all the human tools.

The Quran also has many things which are inconsistent with whatever limited knowledge man has been able to understand with all the human tools.
Originally posted by Quranexplorer Quranexplorer wrote:


Whereas all the attempts to attribute a human origin to Quran has been a failure till date and it will remain so till the day of resurrection.

If you believe God makes errors, perhaps you are correct.
Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:


The Quran is not absolutely free from errors. There was no Pharaoh who believed he was the only god his people had, who drowned in the sea, and who had his buildings destroyed by God.The Thamud did not carve homes out of mountains.Chain mail was not around at the time of David, it was invented 700 years later, in Europe.It is not true that bodies of salty and fresh water do not "transgress" when they meet.Jesus was crucified. Early Christian as well as non-Christian historical sources attest to this.

Originally posted by Quranexplorer Quranexplorer wrote:


Now let�s look at your claims of errors in Quran:

There was no Pharaoh who believed he was the only god his people had, who drowned in the sea, and who had his buildings destroyed by God � REJECTED, unless you can testify this with some reason nobody cares about this statement

This is quite easy. Egyptian religion was a polytheistic one, and the Ancient Egyptians worshiped both their Pharaohs and their other gods. There was no Pharaoh who would have been unaware that his people had gods other than he.

Regarding a Pharaoh drowning in the sea and whose buildings have been destroyed, the burden of proof is on the one making such claims.

Originally posted by Quranexplorer Quranexplorer wrote:


The Thamud did not carve homes out of mountains - REJECTED, unless you can testify this with some reason nobody cares about this statement

The only buildings that exist at Madain Saleh that are carved from mountains are Nabatean tombs. The area hadn't had human interference for hundreds of years both before and after the Quran was written, so there is very little chance that they would have been destroyed but not the Nabatean ones. Muslim scholars have confused Nabatean architecture with those of the Thamud.
Originally posted by Quranexplorer Quranexplorer wrote:


Chain mail was not around at the time of David, it was invented 700 years later, in Europe. � REJECTED, Iron was known to man from very ancient times and there is no correct record of when its usage started, some even dates back as early as 3,400 BC. So what is the authenticity of saying chain mail was made only 700 years after prophet David (pbuh).

Do you know the difference between iron and chain mail? There is no correct record of when the usage of iron started, but there is record of when usage of chain mail started.
Originally posted by Quranexplorer Quranexplorer wrote:


It is not true that bodies of salty and fresh water do not "transgress" when they meet � REJECTED, it is known fact that the earth has two separate water cycles of salty and fresh waters which are maintained in perfect balance without transgressing each other.

What do you understand by saying they do not transgress?
Originally posted by Quranexplorer Quranexplorer wrote:


Jesus was crucified. Early Christian as well as non-Christian historical sources attest to this � REJECTED by the following Quranic verses:
An-Nisa 4: 157-159: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. (157) But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise. (158) There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them - (159)

How is that a refutation of anything? You provided an opinion of someone who rejects that the crucifixion happened.

[QUOTE=Quranexplorer]
Now the choice is yours, whether to follow book(s) that have been established as corrupt by human hands or follow the book that you have been trying hard to attribute some human origin but keep failing. And if your choice is still the former one then:

Al-Kafiroon 109:6: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. (6)

You haven't demonstrated that the Quran is from God.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 5>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.