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The irony in using science to deny Allah

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Quranexplorer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Quranexplorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 July 2014 at 5:29am
Okay, so you just threw your statistics without the least knowledge of Quran. Then you should at least give a try to understand what I explained in the previous post on Quran. Don't waste your time looking for provable content and miraculous predictions in all the verses of Quran.

Quran has been influencing the hearts of many worldwide due to a number of miraculous characteristics including the superior moral lessons, an unmatched ease in handling a variety of subjects as complex as creation of the universe to matters of our daily life, an impeccable consistency of facts throughout its verses, the fact that it has and will remain the same always, the superior elegance of its language, the sound reasoning it provides on various subjects, and the universal and timeless nature of its message etc, and not solely because of the provable contents and miraculous predictions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote airmano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2014 at 5:29am
QE:
Quote Okay, so you just threw your statistics without the least knowledge of Quran
Wrong! I did read a good part of it. The verses you gave fit pretty much the given statistics, but feel free to post more for analysis.
Quote Don't waste your time looking for provable content and miraculous predictions in [all] the verses of Quran
At least here we agree !
Quote Quran has been influencing the hearts of many worldwide due to a number of miraculous characteristics including the superior moral lessons, an unmatched ease in handling a variety of subjects as complex as creation of the universe to matters of our daily life, an impeccable consistency of facts throughout its verses
Strange, Christians say exactly the same when talking about the bible, Jews on behalf of the Torah and Mormons - surprise - about the "Book Mormon".
Quote ...the fact that it has and will remain the same always, the superior elegance of its language
Gilgamesh, the Odyssey and the Torah will also always remain the same and they are unaltered for much longer than 1400 years already. And who judges, based on which rules, "the superior elegance of its language [of the Quran]" ?
Quote ...and not solely because of the provable contents and miraculous predictions
I'm still waiting for at least one useful example in terms of "provable contents and miraculous predictions" which is beyond triviality (like the lamp) and/or facts in the Quran that were/are really new (and not imported from the Greeks).

Airmano

Edited by airmano - 18 July 2014 at 2:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Quranexplorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2014 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

Wrong! I did read a good part of it. The verses you gave fit pretty much the given statistics, but feel free to post more for analysis.


Don't be under the impression that I have some obligation to clear your misunderstandings on Quran or to analyse some baseless statistics. However, I am happy for an analysis once you share the basis for your statistics.


Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

Strange, Christians say exactly the same when talking about the bible, Jews on behalf of the Torah and Mormons - surprise - about the "Book Mormon".


The Bible and Torah in their original form are the words from the one god Allah. But it is an established fact that the current versions of the Bible and Torah have undergone many changes by human hands, seriously undermining their authenticity and this is acknowledged even by many among them. And the Book of Mormon clearly have a human origin. It is a different topic of discussion that how people can be guided by "divine books" that have been clearly established as having undergone changes by human hands.

Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

Gilgamesh, the Odyssey and the Torah will also always remain the same and they are unaltered for much longer than 1400 years already. And who judges, based on which rules, "the superior elegance of its language [of the Quran]" ?


The Gilgamesh or the Odyssey are human works with no religious intent exhorting man to follow a system of life to achieve spiritual success. So nobody cares whether these remain same or not. And Torah as I have already mentioned has been established as modified by human hands.

Al-Baqara 2:23: And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful. (23) The Quran challenges anyone to create or write one Verse like the Quran. The pagans at the time of the prophet Muhammad (pbuh),at a time the elegance of the Arabic language was at it's height, failed to meet this challenge, and till this day 1400 years later no one has been able to meet this challenge.

Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

I'm still waiting for at least one useful example in terms of "provable contents and miraculous predictions" which is beyond triviality (like the lamp) and/or facts in the Quran that were/are really new (and not imported from the Greeks).


There are plenty if you really heed. But human excuses can have no limit, let's see what excuse you have got on this one:

Al Anbiya 21:30: Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe? - This is perfectly in line with the modern scientific idea of primary nebula followed by separation of elements resulting in formation of galaxies. Also a clear reference to the aquatic origin of life.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote airmano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2014 at 7:50am
Quranexplorer:
Quote However, I am happy for an analysis once you share the basis for your statistics.
My main division is prove-/measurable (or not), the second one trivial/nonsense/or really new information.
Admittedly "funny" is a more personal view, may be you can live with the following separation: More than 90% of the Quran are unprovable statements. The remaining claims are either so vague that they can not be interpreted, trivial, or simply wrong (I come to your heaven/earth in a second). There are no important scientifically (=provable) unexpected/new claims in the Quran.
That there is some jitter in the separation between "provable or not" is in the nature of things.

Now:
Quote The Bible and Torah in their original form are the words from the one god Allah. But it is an established fact that the current versions of the Bible and Torah have undergone many changes by human hands, seriously undermining their authenticity and this is acknowledged even by many among them. And the Book of Mormon clearly have a human origin. It is a different topic of discussion that how people can be guided by "divine books" that have been clearly established as having undergone changes by human hands.
Wow, tell this to a Mormon! ( I let you do the exercise).
Than: Why should God protect one holy book (The Quran) and not the others ? Are there more and less holy "holy books" ?
And who (besides the Muslims) says that the Quran is unaltered ? It is also a fact that Uthman destroyed all other versions of the Quran. Why has the Sanaa parchment been erased and overwritten? The original Quran is written in "rasm" which can not be read unambigously anyway. The translations vary substantially from each other, partly because of that.

Furthermore:

Quote The Gilgamesh or the Odyssey are human works with no religious intent exhorting man to follow a system of life to achieve spiritual success. So nobody cares whether these remain same or not
Well, about the Quran being unchanged 80% of the world population do not care either. And writings about "Moral and spiritual life" is something you can find in a 1000 different versions from uncountable self-claimed apostles like my favourite:
http://vissarion.eu/en/ for example.

Now:

Quote Al-Baqara 2:23: And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful. (23) The Quran challenges anyone to create or write one Verse like the Quran. The pagans at the time of the prophet Muhammad (pbuh),at a time the elegance of the Arabic language was at it's height, failed to meet this challenge, and till this day 1400 years later no one has been able to meet this challenge.
I am still waiting for the criterias and the committees deciding on that. Could you please reply to this question ?


Last not least:
Quote There are plenty if you really heed. But human excuses can have no limit, let's see what excuse you have got on this one:

Al Anbiya 21:30: Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe? - This is perfectly in line with the modern scientific idea of primary nebula followed by separation of elements resulting in formation of galaxies. Also a clear reference to the aquatic origin of life.
Again a lot of wrong and vague statements.
It is written: "we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?" First: Where is the credit to the Greeks, who postulated that the origin of live lies in water - again almost a thousand years earlier than Mohamed?

Now: The way it is written in the Quran the claim is also wrong: We are not(!) made out of water, we contain a high quantity of water. (The element that dominates our chemistry is Carbon). This is obviously not the same. It is likely (but not sure) that the origin of live on earth lies in the water but this is again not what is written in the Quran. And btw. are we now made out of clay or out of water ? Even within the Quran there are (plenty of) contradictions.

To finish:
Quote Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water?


Let me come up with a counter-example:
if he Quran stated "And those who believe, know that the sky is green and the water red". Instead of realizing that this is bare nonsense you would immediately claim that the Quran holds information about the northern light (inexistent in Saudi Arabia) and reveals the existence of (than) unknown continents because there you can find lakes like this one http://miltonbell.photoshelter.com/image/I0000WyzD6kBUHKE Therefore the Quran is of divine origin.

In clear terms: The sentence about heaven and earth can be interpreted in a zillion different ways (it belongs thus to the "vague" sub-category), but you always pick out the interpretation that suits you best AFTER the associated (scientific) findings have been made! And when I remind you that strong evidence means "predictive power" (= Correct claims made before(!) supporting evidence is found), you always take the escape lane by saying that the Quran is not a science book. Indeed, it is not.
I work in science and frankly, if I tried to "prove" my theories with vague statements like this, I'd loose my job the very same day.


Not good:

Airmano


Edited by airmano - 30 July 2014 at 11:27am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Quranexplorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2014 at 8:01pm
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:


My main division is prove-/measurable (or not), the second one trivial/nonsense/or really new information.
Admittedly "funny" is a more personal view, may be you can live with the following separation: More than 90% of the Quran are unprovable statements. The remaining claims are either so vague that they can not be interpreted, trivial, or simply wrong (I come to your heaven/earth in a second). There are no important scientifically (=provable) unexpected/new claims in the Quran.
That there is some jitter in the separation between "provable or not" is in the nature of things.


Still you have not provided any basis for your statistics � it�s only a personal opinion. And what you are trying is to first throw some numbers and then try to fit things to that and here again your statistics keep changing. I would expect a clearly verifiable basis for the statistics on Quran, especially when a man of science like you makes a statement on a book that is available for verification in public domain .Anyway, let's not waste our time on this further.

Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

Why should God protect one holy book (The Quran) and not the others ? Are there more and less holy "holy books" ?
And who (besides the Muslims) says that the Quran is unaltered ? It is also a fact that Uthman destroyed all other versions of the Quran. Why has the Sanaa parchment been erased and overwritten? The original Quran is written in "rasm" which can not be read unambigously anyway. The translations vary substantially from each other, partly because of that.


Asking questions with no intent to understand is one of the easiest thing in this world. There is no point in trying to fit your reason to Allah�s will in all things unless you have answers to all the possible questions. Even I wonder on things like why can�t the sea water be sweet? Or why can�t we humans have wings to fly? Or why can�t the date palms produce olives for a change sometimes? Or why can�t we stop someone from dying etc.

Instead of speculating, why don�t you produce two different versions of Quran in existence now, if you can? What Uthman (R.A) did was standardization of a hitherto non-standard text that people memorized and some kept in writing for their own purpose. The Sanaa parchments which dates back to around 671 AD falls under one of the non-standard texts. It will be worth a discussion if you can bring to the table some specific alterations if you are aware, instead of making surface level speculations.

�Rasm� is an Arabic script and has nothing to do with the variation in translations � there is no problem of ambiguity if you have the right intent. If I have to learn Chinese for a living, I have to do that even though I find it quite confusing now. The translations vary because of the difference in understanding between different translators for various reasons like sometimes it is quite difficult to find a suitable English word to really convey the full meaning of an Arabic word.

Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

Well, about the Quran being unchanged 80% of the world population do not care either. And writings about "Moral and spiritual life" is something you can find in a 1000 different versions from uncountable self-claimed apostles like my favourite:
http://vissarion.eu/en/ for example.


You are wrong. More than any other book in existence, there are many people around the world other than Muslims who are concerned about the Quran (sometimes maybe for the wrong reasons, like you). If not, you won�t see so many non-Muslims including you discussing the Quran in this forum itself.

Regarding your link, all these apostle ideas are so incomplete like anything human that they fail to provide a complete system of life with a clear purpose for the human existence.

Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

I am still waiting for the criterias and the committees deciding on that. Could you please reply to this question ?


Quran established itself as a book of superior wisdom not because it was judged by a committee according to some criteria and got some 5 star rating, but because it could transform human minds around the world due to its superior wisdom.

So if you think you can produce something similar or superior, you should not be worried about the criteria and committees, but should just go ahead with your work and if it is really a worthy opponent it will be judged and if successful it will get established the same way. And going by your claims of a human origin to Quran, I would expect you to produce a far superior work having the advantage of so much information at your finger tips compared to an illiterate man 1400 years ago!

Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

Again a lot of wrong and vague statements.
It is written: "we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?" First: Where is the credit to the Greeks, who postulated that the origin of live lies in water - again almost a thousand years earlier than Mohamed?

Now: The way it is written in the Quran the claim is also wrong: We are not(!) made out of water, we contain a high quantity of water. (The element that dominates our chemistry is Carbon). This is obviously not the same. It is likely (but not sure) that the origin of live on earth lies in the water but this is again not what is written in the Quran.


Having mentioned the origin of earth, here the background is clearly set on the origin of life on earth. So I don�t see the need to look beyond this.

For the argument sake � if you say we are not made of water but only contain water, then it should be possible for us to be alive with no water content in our body. But I think humans die of dehydration even if the water content in our body falls below a specific limit?

Again you are wrong, the element that dominates our chemistry is Oxygen, not Carbon.

It was only a postulate from Greeks not certainty as stated in Quran.

Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

And btw. are we now made out of clay or out of water ? Even within the Quran there are (plenty of) contradictions.


I have a building that has used both cement and bricks for construction. Now can you say what the building is made of? Cement or bricks?

Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:


Let me come up with a counter-example:
if he Quran stated "And those who believe, know that the sky is green and the water red". Instead of realizing that this is bare nonsense you would immediately claim that the Quran holds information about the northern light (inexistent in Saudi Arabia) and reveals the existence of (than) unknown continents because there you can find lakes like this one http://miltonbell.photoshelter.com/image/I0000WyzD6kBUHKE Therefore the Quran is of divine origin.

In clear terms: The sentence about heaven and earth can be interpreted in a zillion different ways (it belongs thus to the "vague" sub-category), but you always pick out the interpretation that suits you best AFTER the associated (scientific) findings have been made! And when I remind you that strong evidence means "predictive power" (= Correct claims made before(!) supporting evidence is found), you always take the escape lane by saying that the Quran is not a science book. Indeed, it is not.
I work in science and frankly, if I tried to "prove" my theories with vague statements like this, I'd loose my job the very same day.


Frankly, you being a man of science and someone always looking for proofs, I wonder why don�t you definitively establish a contradiction (like your imaginary example of �sky is green and the water red� statement) in Quran instead of relying on speculations, possibilities, ifs, buts and all.

I feel you are trying to evade this heaven and earth sentence from Quran and I would love to see one better explanation from your zillion interpretations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote airmano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2014 at 2:42pm
Qranexplorer:
Quote ...Still you have not provided any basis for your statistic
I did: the criteria is "Provable Statement". I asked you whether you could provide any proof regarding the information content of the many verses you quoted and which I put into my 90% basket- you never did.
-----------------------------------------------------
Than
Quote Instead of speculating, why don�t you produce two different versions of Quran in existence now, if you can? What Uthman (R.A) did was standardization of a hitherto non-standard text that people memorized and some kept in writing for their own purpose. The Sanaa parchments which dates back to around 671 AD falls under one of the non-standard texts. It will be worth a discussion if you can bring to the table some specific alterations if you are aware, instead of making surface level speculations.
Honestly, I don't understand what you mean. One one side you admit that there have been other versions (you call them "Non Standard") and at the same time you ask me to prove that there have been different versions of the Quran ?! All that Uthman did was assembling the pieces and saying "This is it" (burning the rest).
-------------------------------------------------------
Quote �Rasm� is an Arabic script and has nothing to do with the variation in translations
This is correct, but it makes its reading ambiguous. In these cases (of ambiguity) it is not the translation but the meaning the translator gives it in the first place that varies.
-----------------------------------------------
Than
Quote Quran established itself as a book of superior wisdom not because it was judged by a committee according to some criteria and got some 5 star rating, but because it could transform human minds around the world due to its superior wisdom.

Again: If you use the word "superior" twice what is your criterion that allows you to compare ?
------------------------------------------------------
Quote For the argument sake � if you say we are not made of water but only contain water, then it should be possible for us to be alive with no water content in our body. But I think humans die of dehydration even if the water content in our body falls below a specific limit?
Sure, I never doubted the importance of water but I contest the phrasing that we are "made out of water"
----------------------------------------------------
Quote
Again you are wrong, the element that dominates our chemistry is Oxygen, not Carbon.
Please google first before coming up with such statements.
--------------------------------------------------
Quote It was only a postulate from Greeks not certainty as stated in Quran.
Sorry ? Is this a joke ?
--------------------------------------------------------
Quote I have a building that has used both cement and bricks for construction. Now can you say what the building is made of? Cement or bricks?

Neither nor, I'd explain in more details.
---------------------------------------------------------
Quote
I feel you are trying to evade this heaven and earth sentence from Quran and I would love to see one better explanation from your zillion interpretations.

Not at all! The verse goes:
"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them..."
What's about looking at it in a biblic sense: "once heaven and earth were one" (until god kicked us out) ?
And before you get excited abot the "s" behind heaven, have a look at 2:29.

Airmano



Edited by airmano - 14 August 2014 at 2:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Browne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 October 2014 at 3:15am
Originally posted by Quranexplorer Quranexplorer wrote:

So you are in a situation of uncertainty with no definite answers and you have seen neither science nor your reason can give you full answers. But a sincere approach to Quran can, the choice is yours whether to remain in dark or seek the light and of course with Allah's will: Al-Maeda 5:16: Whereby Allah guideth him who seeketh His good pleasure unto paths of peace. He bringeth them out of darkness unto light by His decree, and guideth them unto a straight path.


Yes, we are in this situation. Uncertainty is part of our universe. For some questions there are no definite answers. Check out Werner Heisenberg or Kurt Friedrich G�del for example.

Uncertainty also applies to religious beliefs. We cannot prove God. We cannot disprove God. We cannot prove that one religion is true and another one is wrong. We can only believe and to me it's a good thing to allow for doubts and skepticism and keep an open mind.

I support an "your belief and my belief" approach. You believe in the Prophet Muhammad as the last prophet and that's fine. I believe in the power of the Sermon on the Mount. We can both keep our beliefs and they can coexist. Live and let live. That's the way forward. That's the way to spread peace.



Edited by Matt Browne - 04 October 2014 at 3:17am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Quranexplorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 October 2014 at 3:46am
Originally posted by Matt Browne Matt Browne wrote:



Yes, we are in this situation. Uncertainty is part of our universe. For some questions there are no definite answers. Check out Werner Heisenberg or Kurt Friedrich G�del for example.Uncertainty also applies to religious beliefs. We cannot prove God. We cannot disprove God. We cannot prove that one religion is true and another one is wrong. We can only believe and to me it's a good thing to allow for doubts and skepticism and keep an open mind.I support an "your belief and my belief" approach. You believe in the Prophet Muhammad as the last prophet and that's fine. I believe in the power of the Sermon on the Mount. We can both keep our beliefs and they can coexist. Live and let live. That's the way forward. That's the way to spread peace.


I would absolutely agree with you regarding one's freedom to choose the path he wants to follow. The following verses from Quran echoes this idea completely:

Al-Baqara 2:256 There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.

Also you are absolutely right when you say there are uncertainties or questions that are beyond human capabilities to answer.

I do keep an open mind as well. But, the part I don't agree is when you expect that open mindedness or reason to be the only way of guidance, as we can never have a human mind that could reason everything - the point is human reason when applied alone cannot be an absolute authority for guidance.

This is where the Quran comes in as an absolute guidance - a proven guidance which could transform an illiterate man into the most influential person in history (It's not only the opinion of Muslims, but also asserted by Michael H. Hart in his book "The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History"). A sincere approach to the Quran combined with an appreciation of the Prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) life leaves no reason for a Muslim to have further doubts or skepticism regarding his faith.

Having said this, that still leaves all of us with the freedom to choose our path and I completely agree with you that we all can coexist in peace.
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