The irony in using science to deny Allah |
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Quranexplorer
Senior Member Male Joined: 09 May 2014 Status: Offline Points: 152 |
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My apologies, maybe it was an over expectation from my part that you will get it straight. Let me explain you this way: Allah � the ultimate creator, cherisher and sustainer of man to whom man is indebted for his very being itself puts forward to man a clear Contract which stipulates: 1. Man should be grateful and worship only Allah and live a righteous life as set out by Allah 2. If man succeeds in this obligation, he is offered a reward much greater than what he rightfully deserves 3. If he fails in this obligation, he will be punished only to the extend he has failed and he will not be wronged in the least. And the striking point is that man�s credit account towards Allah is so huge having already availed all the benefits freely available to him in Allah�s universe which was not created by man�s hands (material things including air, water, minerals, animals, vegetation etc. and even man�s physical faculties or other abstract qualities etc.) that anything that he do to please Allah can never wipe off this credit. Still Allah accepts his creations who sincerely seeks his pleasure, with all their imperfections and admits then to eternal bliss out of his mercy. Those who are punished are rebellious transgressors who after having availed all of Allah�s mercies, after having shown clear signs, after having given clear guidance through Quran- a book full of wisdom, after having guided through lives of numerous prophets and still under default on many counts. Even for such transgressors there is mercy with Allah that if they repent sincerely he can forgive their past sins and admit them to eternal bliss. I�m just human and I�m incapable to express the full magnitude of Allah through my words which is much above this. Now give me an example from the human world comparable to Allah if you can. And what makes you think Allah should fit in to your reason when you make the below statement when you already know that your reason is not good enough to even explain many things observed in the natural world:
So the ultimate point is not of reason or science, but of choice, you choose to not believe whatever it may and it is up to you to choose the right path and of course with Allah�s will. |
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airmano
Senior Member Joined: 31 March 2014 Status: Offline Points: 884 |
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Originally posted by Abu Loren
A truly open-minded statement ! To Quranexplorer: You start to learn, no Quran citations and no hellfire in your last post. Thanks ! Obviously you can't accept the fact that (most of) the people on earth do not consider the "Allah construction" as being a serious concept. When you write:
But: YOU claim that Allah exists, so it is your job to "prove" it. Airmano Edited by airmano - 03 June 2014 at 4:39am |
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Quranexplorer
Senior Member Male Joined: 09 May 2014 Status: Offline Points: 152 |
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The Quranic scientific references could be another topic of discussion, and I haven�t seen any credible opposition arguments except in the line �you maybe right, but I just can�t accept it�. Quran need not be proved by science and we've already seen science cannot prove or disprove Quran (explained hereunder again) so let�s remove the illusion of science as the ultimate "testifier".
Good, so you acknowledge the limitations of science that it is no "know it all". But still would remain adamant on the argument that there can be no truth unless proved(testified by science)- this makes no sense. But what I do is I look beyond science and I see the Quran far superior in all counts specifically the following: 1. Quran gives a clear purpose for creation � science like in many other counts, have no clue about this. 2. The realm of Quran covers all aspects of human life with superior wisdom � the realm of science is very limited and cannot explain many things even in this limited realm. So how can science which is so incomplete and operating in a limited realm as you also agree can possibly testify the Quran which covers all aspects of human life with superior wisdom . And if not science then what other way is left? The only way to understand the truth of Quran is to sincerely approach it, and once you do this you can see that it gives you perfect clarity on all aspects which science and human reason when applied independently fails to do miserably. In a nutshell, the realm of Allah is beyond the comprehension of any human tools including science, so there is no point in trying to fit Allah in to science, whereas it is the opposite - many things from whatever little science is able to explain correctly, fits in to what Allah has revealed to man in the form of scientific references in Quran, as signs for men of understanding.
Now you contradict your earlier statement of science accepting things beyond its realm as "I don't know". This is clearly out of the realm of science and you should not be changing your words here.
Come on, I wish if you could spend half the energies that you spend in misinterpreting the verses in interpreting the verses correctly, what a change it could have brought to your life. Here the reference is about "disbelievers" not "creatures" which makes a huge difference. The act of disbelief by man is a grave default because then he is a rebellious transgressor who after having availed all of Allah�s mercies, after having shown clear signs, after having given clear guidance through Quran- a book full of wisdom and after having guided through lives of numerous prophets, still choose to reject the truth. The turning point is the choice to believe or not believe.You are given the choice and you rebelliously chose not to believe and then you try to blame the creator for your failure.How does it make sense? |
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Ron Webb
Senior Member Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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To some, perhaps. To others, Allah deliberately obscures those signs, as you quoted Al-Baqara: 2: 7: "Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom."
Comparable in what way? Every religion has its own deity or deities. As far as I can see they're all comparable.
People don't "choose" to believe or not. They are either persuaded by the evidence, or not. Could you "choose" not to believe in Allah? Then what makes you think I could "choose" to believe? |
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Abu Loren
Senior Member Joined: 29 June 2012 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1646 |
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Not at all. It's just that this thread will have pages and pages of what you will stand on what we will stand on. By this I mean we could provide you with verses from the Qur'an then you will turn around and say we are trying to justify the Qur'an with the Qur'an. It will just go round and round in circles. |
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airmano
Senior Member Joined: 31 March 2014 Status: Offline Points: 884 |
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Abu Loren:
And here: Circular_Reasoning is why I have a problem with this. Regards: Airmano Edited by airmano - 05 June 2014 at 6:26am |
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Quranexplorer
Senior Member Male Joined: 09 May 2014 Status: Offline Points: 152 |
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schmikbob came with an argument saying that Quranic depiction attributes some human characteristics to Allah suggesting a human origin for Quran. I have cleared his misconception by explaining the Quranic depiction of Allah which is absolutely devoid of any human characteristics. So unless he can give some credible explanation with an example comparable to Allah from the human world to attribute a human characteristic to Allah, it clearly shows the non-human origin of Quran by the counter argument (an absolute non-human depiction of Allah in Quran is the proof for its divine origin) � the ball is in your court now! |
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Quranexplorer
Senior Member Male Joined: 09 May 2014 Status: Offline Points: 152 |
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Now coming to the �proof business� which seems to be the last resort of escape for the proponents of science and reason: Having already seen both human reason and science when applied alone are not good enough even to explain or prove many things in the human world, please give some credible answers to below questions if you are serious about the proofs: 1. What proof are you looking at for you to believe in Quran and Allah? 2. What mechanism do you suggest to establish this proof having already seen the failure of both human reason and science to fully establish such proofs even in the much limited human world, let alone the realm of Allah? |
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