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Question for Muslims about 29:38

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TG12345 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TG12345 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 April 2014 at 6:39pm
Originally posted by Lachi Lachi wrote:

So the identification rests on whether the word 'alhijr' is to be taken as a specific locality (Al-Hijr where the Nabateans lived), or is just a generic word related to geography (rocky place).

Perhaps the identification was erroneously made by early Muslims, based on seeing the impressive rock tombs of the Nabateans, and then became so ingrained as to become 'obvious' when reading the Surah. Modern guide-books, archaeologists and scholars might just be repeating this tradition.

What evidence backs up the identification? Does the Hadith mentioned clearly identify the locality? And links it to the Thamud?

Nowhere in the Quran is the direction or specific location given. That is as true of Al Hijr as it is of Jerusalem.

If Madain Saleh and Petra are not the places that the Quran is referring to, the question remains- where are these dwellings? They allegedly stand as witness to the destruction of the Thamud (and 'Ad). The Quran's author claims that their destruction "has become clear to you" from their dwellings.

Where are they?

29:38

And [We destroyed] 'Aad and Thamud, and it has become clear to you from their [ruined] dwellings. And Satan had made pleasing to them their deeds and averted them from the path, and they were endowed with perception.

Why do historians and archaeologists say that they never settled anywhere or built a permanent kingdom?

It isn't for lack of evidence left by these people. The Thamud enjoyed carving pictures out of rocks. Their art can be seen in some parts of Arabia, as well as also parts of Jordan and Egypt. Most of the pictures contain camels, people, and ibexes.

http://www.academia.edu/4362714/Rock_art_landscapes_beside_the_Jubbah_palaeolake_Saudi_Arabia

As this source also shows, the Thamud were a nomadic people, who traveled from place to place. They did not leave behind them any material remains.

The expedient nature of Thamudic rock art and its focus at the jebel bases suggest that it was made by transhumant people. The lack of material remains, the limited themes presented in the rock art, and the profusion of camel images, which are occasionally mounted, all suggest that the people who created this rock art were nomadic. This supports MacDonald�s (2010)hypothesis that many nomadic societies in ancient Arabia were literate and were profligate at marking graffitti on rocks in the desert.

There is an academic paper online that I would love to read, but unfortunately am unable to access without paying. Fortunately, an abstract is given.


THE STORY OF THE ARABIAN ROCK ART: A THAMUDIC 'INFORMANT'

There is in northern Arabia an extensive corpus of inscriptions that were left behind by ancient nomadic people. These inscriptions are found sharing the same space as rock art, overlaying older petroglyphs or in proximity to them. Often decipherable, the northern Arabian inscriptions are, at minimum, of a heuristic value for the interpretation of rock art. They provide a rare window into the minds of the rock artists, their motives, their thoughts and the purpose of their parietal activities. Most importantly, they show that drawing and writing were just as important a preoccupation for the ancient nomads as herding. These nomads used drawing and writing for the purpose of expressing their thoughts and emotions, for recording their commemorations, and for greeting. Writing and drawing were also associated with spirituality, yet they indicate no shamanic activity.

http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/articles/35227725/story-arabian-rock-art-thamudic-informant


The Quran's author is making the claim that the Thamud, a tribe of people who were very obviously nomads built castles and carved homes out of mountains. It tells people that these structures can still be seen and serve as a reminder of their destruction.

History shows us the following:

1) The majestic buildings carved out of mountains that can be seen in Saudi Arabia and Jordan are not homes carved out more than three thousand years ago before the time of Moses, but rather tombs carved out only a century of so before the time of Jesus... and some of them afterwards. Not by the Thamud, but by the Nabataeans.

2) The Thamud were a nomadic tribe that traveled from place to place. They left "rock grafitti", in which they carved out camels, ibexes, and people. They did not form any permanent settlements, and left behind no traces of their existence other than their petroglyphs.


Clearly, the author of the Quran didn't know the history of the Thamud that well. Which wouldn't be the case if he was the one who created them.


Edited by TG12345 - 25 April 2014 at 3:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lachi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 April 2014 at 4:07pm
Thank you TG12345. That makes the argument clearer; -

1. The Quran says the Thamud built dwellings that still existed in the 7th Century.

2. Archaeologists/scholars believe that the Thamud were nomads and had no permanent dwellings.

3. Scholars assume that the Thamud dwellings mentioned in the Quran must be referring to the Nabatean rock tombs

How unlikely is it that other structures could have been destroyed since the 7th Century, or that the caves containing the rock art were identified as Thamud dwellings?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TG12345 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 April 2014 at 5:05pm
Originally posted by Lachi Lachi wrote:

Thank you TG12345. That makes the argument clearer; -

1. The Quran says the Thamud built dwellings that still existed in the 7th Century.

2. Archaeologists/scholars believe that the Thamud were nomads and had no permanent dwellings.

3. Scholars assume that the Thamud dwellings mentioned in the Quran must be referring to the Nabatean rock tombs

How unlikely is it that other structures could have been destroyed since the 7th Century, or that the caves containing the rock art were identified as Thamud dwellings?

Greetings, Lachi. Thanks for this great discussion.

Is 29:38 addressed to only people in the 7th century? Or to all readers of the Quran?


Yusuf Ali, in his commentary of the Quran, writes the following:

38.  Remember also the 'Ad and the Thamud (people):

C3459. For the 'Ad people see 7:65-72, and n. 1040,

and for the Thamud, 7:73-79, and n. 1043.

The remains of their buildings show:

-        that they were gifted with great intelligence and skill;

-        that they were proud of their material civilization; and

-        their destruction argues how the greatest material civilization and resources cannot save a People who disobey Allah's moral law.


I see nothing to suggest that these remains were destroyed. I am unaware of any tafsir or Quran commentary that states that they were around at the time of Muhammad, and now are gone.

Ask yourself this question- why would petroglyphs that the Thamud carved out of rocks all across the region they live be around... and they exist, in the thousands... survive, but all of the buildings which they carved out of mountains, and that have been allegedly around for at least 1,500 years- be suddenly destroyed to the extent that we have no trace of these structures whatsoever existing?

Also, why would the mountain-carved homes of the Thamud be completely annihilated, yet the mountain-carved tombs of the Nabataeans still remain in place?

It makes no sense, to say the least.

Outside of the Quran, there is absolutely no mention of the Thamud building castles or carving homes out of mountains. All archaeological evidence we have indicates that they were a nomadic people, who traveled from place to place.


I think the argument that these buildings existed but they could have since been destroyed since the 7th century, is a weak one.

We have no proof outside of the Quran that the Thamud carved homes out of rock or built castles.

We have plenty of archaeological evidence that they were a nomadic people, who traveled from place to place. They left their art in many places- another sign that they moved around quite a bit. But no buildings.

We also have buildings carved from rock at both Madain Saleh and Petra, that many Muslim scholars and archaeologists alike have identifed as the structures that the Quran makes reference to.

I believe the Quran's author made a historic error.

You asked

"How unlikely is it that other structures could have been destroyed since the 7th Century, or that the caves containing the rock art were identified as Thamud dwellings? "

I responded to the first part of your question by saying that it is highly improbable that such structures ever existed.

If you want to speculate that they were destroyed, feel free to do so, but the onus is on you to present what evidence you have that this destruction took place. Also, let me know where you believe this happened.

Regarding the second part, in blue, which caves are you referring to? The ones cited in the articles I provided? Not sure if I understand what you are asking, if you could please clarify that would be great.
Are you saying that the Thamud could have lived in the caves where the rock art has been found? Quite possibly, it could have been a place to stop by between travels, I suppose. Is there any evidence of buildings being carved out anywhere from these rocks?

Salaam.


Edited by TG12345 - 25 April 2014 at 6:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TG12345 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 April 2014 at 7:37pm
In his tafsir of 29:38, Ibn Qathir wrote that Al Hijr is located near Wadi Al Qura.

Allah tells us about these nations who disbelieved in their Messengers, and how He destroyed them and sent various kinds of punishments and vengeance upon them. `Ad, the people of Hud, peace be upon him, used to live in the Ahqaf (curved sand-hills), near Hadramawt, in the Yemen. Thamud, the people of Salih, lived in Al-Hijr, near Wadi Al-Qura. The Arabs used to know their dwelling place very well, and they often used to pass by it. Qarun was the owner of great wealth and had the keys to immense treasures. Fir`awn, the king of Egypt at the time of Musa, and his minister Haman were two Coptics who disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger, peace be upon him.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2167&Itemid=85

Wadi Al Qura is another name for Al Ula, Saudi Arabia. Al Ula is close to Madain Saleh.


Tourists who visit Al Ula often also visit Madain Saleh.

http://allafrica.com/stories/201311150307.html

http://www.virtualtourist.com/travel/Middle_East/Saudi_Arabia/Mintaqat_al_Madinah/Al_Ula-1807519/Things_To_Do-Al_Ula-TG-C-1.html

These sites are about 22 kilometres away from each other.

Mada�in Saleh, not far from al-Ula (22 km), was known as al-Hijr, or Hegra, by the Nabataean people who carved its magnificent tombs into the golden Quweira sandstone outcrops.

http://saudi-archaeology.com/sites/madain-saleh/

I believe that this is more evidence that the Quran mistakenly attributes the structures of the Nabataeans to the Thamud.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lachi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2014 at 2:16pm
I do not know what the 'official' take on the passage in Surah 29:38 is, but I would read it as directed towards Mohammed's audience at that time - not to all mankind for ever. It is not a law or command, otherwise there would have been a regular pilgrimage to the site in order for every Muslim to see the ruins.

Yusuf Ali's comments on the Thamud are taken directly from the Quranic scriptures, not from an archaeological or historical investigation.

Ibn Qathir was writing over 700 years after the Quran was written. He is preserving a tradition, but can we say he is accurately describing the geographical opinions of people seven centuries earlier? Also note the sentence straight after his mention of Thamud;
"The Arabs used to know their dwelling place very well, and they often used to pass by it."
Notice the past tense? - implying that the dwellings no longer existed in Ibn Qathir's time.

I'm not suggesting that any buildings left were 'suddenly' destroyed. If they were in an advanced state of decay in the time of Mohammed, then why could they not have become completely destroyed in a few centuries after? It might not have taken any great event - just a couple of earthquakes and a storm or two. Not unusual events over a few generations.

Petroglyphs would survive because they are inside caves within their natural form - not artificially carved out dwellings which could have introduced structural weaknesses that were less likely to withstand the rigours of nature. This is of course assuming some peculiar type of carving was employed that did introduce a weakness. Something I'm only suggesting, not trying to prove. Maybe the 'dwellings carved out of stone' actually refers to natural caves that had been modified to live in?

There seems also to be the assumption by you that the Thamud dwellings that were seen in the 7th Century amounted to a veritable city of structures, whereas the reality might have been that only a handful of buildings existed as recognisably such. The disappearance of a few ruins in an advanced state of decay (as I imagine could have been the case) is less improbable than the disappearance of a vast number of structures that were still impressive and sturdy (the scenario you seem to imagine).

The Quranic author might indeed have made an historical error, but the interpretation of it as an error seems to be based on an assumption that the Quran is referring to the Nabataean tombs. Since there doesn't seem to be any evidence for where the 7th Century Muslims believed the Thamud dwellings to be, we cannot be certain that the modern identification on their behalf is accurate.

What we can say is that no other structures in the general area have been identified by modern scholars or archaeologists as being 'carved out of rocks', that mediaeval writers (or at least one) identified the area (albeit implying that the structures no longer exist) as near Madein Salah (although not actually as Madein Salah itself), and that the tourist trade promotes the link in order to boost revenue.

Circumstantial evidence is what we have. In the absence of any other evidence to the contrary, this is what we have to go on. But we must be aware that it is based on an assumption - a highly likely one, but an assumption none the less (unless there is something else written that we haven't seen here yet).

BTW, this is not a belief of mine I'm trying to prove. I'm only providing alternative thinking on the subject (and hopefully not breaking any academic standards, or sounding fanatical, in the process).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TG12345 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2014 at 9:45pm

Originally posted by Lachi Lachi wrote:

I do not know what the 'official' take on the passage in Surah 29:38 is, but I would read it as directed towards Mohammed's audience at that time - not to all mankind for ever. It is not a law or command, otherwise there would have been a regular pilgrimage to the site in order for every Muslim to see the ruins.

Why would it be a pilgrimage spot? Remember that Muhammad and his men rode through the valley quickly, and he told them to only enter the habitations of the Thamud weepingly, lest the same fate befall them. It would to me seem more like a curses place than a place to visit.

Originally posted by Lachi Lachi wrote:


Yusuf Ali's comments on the Thamud are taken directly from the Quranic scriptures, not from an archaeological or historical investigation.

True. And he claims they are still around.

Originally posted by Lachi Lachi wrote:


Ibn Qathir was writing over 700 years after the Quran was written. He is preserving a tradition, but can we say he is accurately describing the geographical opinions of people seven centuries earlier?

 True, there is a large time gap. I am unaware of earlier historians who give the location. I am unaware of Muslim scholars who have challenged his statement, and I am aware of Muslim archaeologists and historians who agree with him.

Originally posted by Lachi Lachi wrote:


 Also note the sentence straight after his mention of Thamud;
"The Arabs used to know their dwelling place very well, and they often used to pass by it."
Notice the past tense? - implying that the dwellings no longer existed in Ibn Qathir's time. 


Yet in his tafsir of 26:149, he writes:

(And you hew out in the mountains, houses with great skill.) Ibn `Abbas and others said, "With great skill.'' According to another report from him: "They were greedy and extravagant.'' This was the view of Mujahid and another group. There is no contradiction between the two views, because they built the houses which they carved in the mountains as a form of extravagant play, with no need for them as dwelling places. They were highly skilled in the arts of masonry and stone-carving, as is well known to anyone who has seen their structures. So, Salih said to them:

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2263&Itemid=82

He seems to be saying that it is obvious to anyone who has seen the structures, that the Thamud were very skilled builders. This seems to be a reference to the present, not only the past.

Ibn Qathir did state that the city that the Thamud lived in was still around in his time.

Here Allah tells us about His servant and Messenger Salih, whom He sent to his people Thamud. They were Arabs living in the city of Al-Hijr -- which is between Wadi Al-Qura and Greater Syria. Their location is well known. In our explanation of Surat Al-A`raf, we mentioned the Hadiths which tell how the Messenger of Allah passed by their dwelling place when he wanted to launch a raid on Syria. He went as far as Tabuk, then he went back to Al-Madinah to prepare himself for the campaign. Thamud came after `Ad and before Ibrahim, peace be upon him. Their Prophet Salih called them to Allah, to worship Him alone with no partner or associate, and to obey whatever commands were conveyed to them, but they refused, rejecting him and opposing him. He told them that he did not seek any reward from them for his call to them, but that he would seek the reward for that with Allah. Then he reminded them of the blessings of Allah.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2264&Itemid=82#1

Originally posted by Lachi Lachi wrote:


I'm not suggesting that any buildings left were 'suddenly' destroyed. If they were in an advanced state of decay in the time of Mohammed, then why could they not have become completely destroyed in a few centuries after? It might not have taken any great event - just a couple of earthquakes and a storm or two. Not unusual events over a few generations.

How do you know they were in an advanced state of decay?

Also, I find it improbable that all traces of them would be destroyed. Consider the city of Ur, built in the 6th century BCE. Sure, most of it is gone, yet there are still remains.
http://www.ancient.eu.com/ur/

Or the stone pillars at Al Jawf.

Al-Jawf

An article] in the March/April 1998 issue of Aramco World recommends a visit to a little-known place called Al-Jawf. How little known? As the article states, "Even among historians of the Arabian Peninsula, al-Jawf is not a name that comes tripping off the tongue."

Al-Jawf is an oasis located at the northern curve of Saudi Arabia's Great Nafud desert. The current community is relatively modern, but as it is set where the trade routes met that once linked Mesopotamia, Persia and Syria with Arabia and Yemen, habitation goes back for millennia.

As the article states:

During the Chalcolithic, or Copper Age, approximately 6000 years ago, the population of Al-Jawf laboriously erected 54 groups of squared-off stone pillars, some of which measured up to three meters (9'6") in height. Called al-rajajil ("the men") today, the pillars appear to the casual observer to be randomly placed, although a bird's-eye view shows that they are placed in roughly parallel east-west lines.

Their significance is no more certain than that of the more famous megaliths at Stonehenge, or the dolmens of Jordan. ....

Today, Al-Jawf is part of an agricultural area, and its ancient history is only now being rediscovered.

http://www.hziegler.com/articles/historical-ancient-sites-in-ksa.html

Structures that were built longer ago than when the Thamud are estimated to have lived, are still around. In ruins, yes, but it's not like all traces of them are gone. They would have been subjected to no less earthquakes and ravages of time than the dwellings of the Thamud.

Why is there absolutely no trace of the buildings that the Thamud allegedly built?


And why do scholars like Ibn Qathir and Yusuf Ali claim that they are around at Madain Saleh? Why do archaeologists, Muslim and non-Muslim, back the claim that the Quran is referring to Madain Saleh?

Originally posted by Lachi Lachi wrote:



Petroglyphs would survive because they are inside caves within their natural form - not artificially carved out dwellings which could have introduced structural weaknesses that were less likely to withstand the rigours of nature. This is of course assuming some peculiar type of carving was employed that did introduce a weakness. Something I'm only suggesting, not trying to prove.

Interesting, but a lot of the rocks with the petroglyphs on them are found in the open, like this one.
Thamudic%20rock%20art

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/1492571

Originally posted by Lachi Lachi wrote:


 Maybe the 'dwellings carved out of stone' actually refers to natural caves that had been modified to live in?

The Quran refers to "houses" "carved out with great skill".

26:149
And you carve out of the mountains, homes, with skill.

Corpus Quran translates the word "homes" as "houses"
http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=%2826:149:4%29

The Thamud allegedly carved houses out of the mountains. A natural cave would have been "carved out" by God, not the Thamud.

Originally posted by Lachi Lachi wrote:


There seems also to be the assumption by you that the Thamud dwellings that were seen in the 7th Century amounted to a veritable city of structures, whereas the reality might have been that only a handful of buildings existed as recognisably such. The disappearance of a few ruins in an advanced state of decay (as I imagine could have been the case) is less improbable than the disappearance of a vast number of structures that were still impressive and sturdy (the scenario you seem to imagine).

According to Ibn Qathir, the Thamud dwellings are "the city" of Al Hijr (known today as Madain Saleh).

I don't know of earlier Muslim scholars who state the same thing. I am however aware of Muslim scholars and historians and archaeologists alike who agree with him. Some of them state that their buildings are in Petra... which were also built by the Nabataeans.

Originally posted by Lachi Lachi wrote:


The Quranic author might indeed have made an historical error, but the interpretation of it as an error seems to be based on an assumption that the Quran is referring to the Nabataean tombs. Since there doesn't seem to be any evidence for where the 7th Century Muslims believed the Thamud dwellings to be, we cannot be certain that the modern identification on their behalf is accurate.

That is why you will notice that I asked what 29:38 is referring to. In earlier threads I started I made the claim that the Quran is referring to Madain Saleh, but I decided to not do that, and just ask the Muslim posters first.

Even if the Quran is not stating that Petra and/or Madain Saleh is "Al Hijr", the question remains where these dwellings are, or were. The word "ruined" is inserted btw, in the original text it is not there.
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=29&verse=38

I think all historical evidence points to the reality of a historical mistake in the Quran's description of the Thamud.

1. We know they were a nomadic people, who traveled from place to place.

2. We have absolutely no record of any buildings they carved from mountains or rock.

3. The petroglyphs created by the Thamud show pictures of camels, people, ibexes. They are indicative of a lifestyle of traveling around and herding.

4. While the Thamud did not skillfully carve buildings out of mountains, others did. The Nabataeans carved elaborate tombs from mountains, which can still be seen today.

5. While I am unaware of any 7th century source which connects Madain Saleh to "Al Hijr", we know that Ibn Qathir, who lived 700 years later but is a very respected tafsir writer, did make that connection. We know that  Muslim historians and archaeologists agree with him.

Originally posted by Lachi Lachi wrote:


What we can say is that no other structures in the general area have been identified by modern scholars or archaeologists as being 'carved out of rocks', that mediaeval writers (or at least one) identified the area (albeit implying that the structures no longer exist) as near Madein Salah (although not actually as Madein Salah itself), and that the tourist trade promotes the link in order to boost revenue.

All true, except stating that Ibn Qathir implied the structures no longer exist. In other parts of his exegesis, he described them in the present form.

Also, not only the tourist trade but archaeologists and historians also agree that Madain Saleh is the "Al Hijr" that is mentioned in the Quran.

Originally posted by Lachi Lachi wrote:


Circumstantial evidence is what we have. In the absence of any other
evidence to the contrary, this is what we have to go on. But we must be aware that it is based on an assumption - a highly likely one, but an assumption none the less (unless there is something else written that we haven't seen here yet).

I agree. I think that all evidence that we have does point rather convincingly to the fact that the Thamud were nomadic and did not carve out any homes from mountains. I look forward to any evidence proving my words to be wrong.

Originally posted by Lachi Lachi wrote:



BTW, this is not a belief of mine I'm trying to prove. I'm only providing alternative thinking on the subject (and hopefully not breaking any academic standards, or sounding fanatical, in the process).

I think you are doing a great job. It's great to have a respectful discussion with an intelligent person.

Looking forward to your response, though I'll be away from the forum for a few days. Will respond then, inshAllah.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TG12345 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2014 at 10:20pm
I just discovered something interesting regarding the placement of the location of the Thamud.

The 9th century Arab historian Masudi, identified the ruins at Petra as the homes of the Thamud.

In a footnote from Islamic Historiography, the Histories of Mas'Udi, by Tarif Khalid, p.37

4. Eg. Muruj sec. 1363, where he* asserts that the people of Iraq can discover for themselves how the various seasons affect health; Muruj sec 929, where he points to the ruins of the Thamud (Petra) as proof that the bodies of their inhabitants were of normal size.

* Mas'udi. Read the text and you will see he is being referenced to.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=3Kl7TjXys6gC&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=location+of+thamud+masudi&source=bl&ots=ZeSgl7skH6&sig=_bbAHdSLrHgdx4POEeWG7H9Hvk4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xZBcU564KISjyAS2soDoDQ&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=location%20of%20thamud%20masudi&f=false

Unlike Ibn Qathir, Mas'Udi identified the ruins at Petra as those of the Thamud. Like him, he mistook Nabataean architecture for the homes allegedly carved out by the Thamud.

If you do some quick research, you will see that the tombs carved out at Petra and Madain Saleh are extremely similar.

So we have an example of an even earlier source attributing Nabataean structures to the homes allegedly carved out by the Thamud. Unlike Ibn Qathir who lived 700 years after the Quran was written, al-Mas'udi lived some 300 years afterwards.
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