IslamiCity.org Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Religion - Islam > Interfaith Dialogue
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Error in Quran and hadiths about Thamud  What is Islam What is Islam  Donate Donate
  FAQ FAQ  Quran Search Quran Search  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Error in Quran and hadiths about Thamud

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1920212223 25>
Author
Message
quintessential View Drop Down
Starter.
Starter.
Avatar
Male
Joined: 12 September 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 5
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote quintessential Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 October 2013 at 1:16am
Originally posted by Caringheart Caringheart wrote:

Originally posted by quintessential quintessential wrote:

Salamaleykum
That's just what it has to be I'm afraid.
If the both of you cannot agree on the very nature of Allah, how do you expect to agree on anything else?

Salamaleykum brother

Greetings Salamaleykum,

But you have joined the discussion late... this thread is about the errors made in the qur'an about the Thamud.

Salaam,
Caringheart



Salamaleykum

Im not so late.I made a response earlier, maybe about a month ago refuting these claims. Anyone with common sense can cite reasons to dispel them.
My favorite of which being:
 suppose Allah with all his might decided to remove the Nabeathian homes and  reconstruct the homes of the Thamud when the prophet and his troop where passing by specifically for the hadith to be recorded, and  then deconstruct the homes of the Thamud and reconstruct the Nabaethian homes when the troop had passed. He is Allah he can do anything.

But honestly the most likely reason is:
The guy who is making this claim is purposefully misinterpreting and concocting a vain theory to suit his needs.

In any case what I was saying to Naba was simply that whenever you have one person that believes in Tauhid and you have another that believes in Trinity the only discussion that should take place is one about trying to dispel trinity from his mind, if you can't succeed in that then the two should respectfully go in peace away from each other until the final day when all arguments are settled.....that is my understanding of the Sunnah of Dawa. Naba has already cited the verse in the Quran. There is a veil over some people that they will never see through. Accept that and move on.
Back to Top
TG12345 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Male
Joined: 16 December 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 1146
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TG12345 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 October 2013 at 7:43pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren Abu Loren wrote:

TG12345,

Watch this video about Prophet Salih (Alayhi Salaam).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHtxCfDNUSs&list=PL9821CA747E7E0674


Salaam Alaikum, Abu Loren. I watched the video. The preacher made a lot of good points, like how bad it is to believe we don't need God and that because of our wealth, He cannot touch us. He also made  a good point that if we reject God's signs, He will punish us. It is true that we must not break promises to our children, since God does not break His promises to us.

I agree with him that prophets do not take money for sharing God's message and that we shouldn't either. I think he made a generalization about Christians- while there are pastors and priests who are obscenely rich and get that money from their congregations, there are others who aren't. The pastor of the church I go to does not take a big paycheck or live in a mansion... I know because I've been to his place. Also, you have tens of thousands of priests and nuns and monks who live in poverty and serve the poor. So the guy made a big generalization, which I think was unfair. It would be like me pointing to Osama bin Laden and saying that religious Muslims all kill innocent people.

The preacher stated that the buildings carved out of rock at Madain Saleh were built by the Thamud, repeating what the Quran and hadiths say.

As I have shown from various Muslim and secular archaeological sources, nothing could be further from the truth. The buildings were carved out of rock between 200 BC and AD 200, by the Nabataeans. Nothing in the video or sources presented by either you or NABA or other Muslim posters have been able to either disprove this, or prove that the Thamud were the builders.

Actually, it is doubtful whether the Thamud built any cities or settlements at all.

The following document is a PHD thesis of Dhaifallah Al-Talhi, University of Southampton Department of Archaeology, about the excavation at Madain Saleh. The document is over 200 pages long, and it briefly discusses the people who lived at Madain Saleh prior to the Nabataeans.

Earliest Historical and Archaeological Information

The first clear mention of the Nabataeans in historical reference dates back to 312 BC, when Diodorus described Petra and its people during Antigonus�s attack on the town (Diodorus XIX 94-97). In was almost three hundred years later that Mada'in Salih was first mentioned by Strabo, who described Gallus�s attack on Arabia in 24 BC (Strabo, Geography 16.4.24). That meant that the town was established in the last quarter of the first century BC.

However,scholars suggest that the town might have been founded before the Nabataean settlement, in the early part of the first millennium B.C., by the Dedanites (Healey, 1993, 25). Dedan is known as Al-Ula. It was an important station on the main caravan routs from South Arabia to North Arabia and flourished during the sixth century BC. Winnett believes that the Minaean inscriptions in Madain Salih (JS1-5, 33, 34) and the 29 Lihyanite inscriptions are strong evidence that the site had witnessed a Minaean occupation prior to the Nabateans (Winnnet and Reed 1970, 130 Chapter 7). Musil believes that the Nabataeans were initially under Lihyanite rule (1926, 107). Al-Ansari believes that the Minaean inscriptions which are located at various places in al-Ula and Madain Salih indicate trade relations between the two towns and not Minaean rule. Minaeasns were temporary residents in Al-Ula, just as they were in other places, like Greece (Al-Ansari, et al. 1984, 11). Pliny mentioned that Hegra was the Lihyanite capital, while Musil believed that Madain Salih was the capital of the Lihyanies before the Nabataeans (Musil, 1926, 107). There were Nabataean inscriptions located on the road between Tay�ma and Madain Salih, which translate as saying that Masudu called himself the King of the Lihyanites. Those inscriptions are dated to the second century B.C. (Winnet and Reed, 1970, 120). As the inscriptions are engraved in Nabataean, it may be suggested that perhaps Masudu was a Nabataean. There seems to be no apparent reason for a Lihyanite to write in Nabataean script. Also Masudu is not listed among the known Nabataean kings, so perhaps he was a revolutionary who took over power from the Lihyanites for the time. Subsequently, Madain Salih took the place of Al-Ula as a trade centre.

Reference should be made to the numerous Thamudian inscriptions located in the area. Muslim historians wrote that Al-Hijr was the land of the Thamudians (Al-Istakhari, 24, Al-Hamawi, 2.220-221), Thamud being an old Arabian tribe. There are a large number of so-called Thamudian inscriptions located all over Arabia, which are usually short, and mention the name of the inscriber, or the tribe or the deities. Some contain the SLM (Salam),* a deity of Tayma attributed to the 6th century B.C. There is a general view among scholars that the Thamudians had no permanent land or settlement and that they never established a kingdom. It is likely that the �Thamud� was the name of a group of several of these tribes (Al-Talhi et al. 1988, 48). However, there is no archaeological evidence from the excavation which can be attributed to an early settlement prior to the Nabataeans.

The archaeological surveys conducted by Winnettt and Reed (1970), by Parr, Harding and Dayton (1971) and the current work do not provide any archaeological material from earlier settlements.

 

Page 179- 180 of report, p 194-195 of the document

 http://eprints.soton.ac.uk/42225/1.hasCoversheetVersion/0000319.pdf


We see not only more evidence pointing to the fact that the Nabataeans were the ones who carved buildings out of mountains at Madain Saleh, now it is looking like the Thamud did not build any permanent settlements or kingdoms to begin with!


Aside from rock inscriptions, I would love to see any archaeological evidence of Thamudian architecture from the time before Moses. Please show it if you are aware of any.

Otherwise, it is looking more and more clear that the Quran and hadith contains a major mistake.






Edited by TG12345 - 25 October 2013 at 8:00pm
Back to Top
TG12345 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Male
Joined: 16 December 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 1146
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TG12345 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 October 2013 at 7:59pm
Originally posted by quintessential quintessential wrote:

Originally posted by Caringheart Caringheart wrote:

Originally posted by quintessential quintessential wrote:

Salamaleykum
That's just what it has to be I'm afraid.
If the both of you cannot agree on the very nature of Allah, how do you expect to agree on anything else?

Salamaleykum brother

Greetings Salamaleykum,

But you have joined the discussion late... this thread is about the errors made in the qur'an about the Thamud.

Salaam,
Caringheart



Salamaleykum

Im not so late.I made a response earlier, maybe about a month ago refuting these claims. Anyone with common sense can cite reasons to dispel them.
My favorite of which being:
 suppose Allah with all his might decided to remove the Nabeathian homes and  reconstruct the homes of the Thamud when the prophet and his troop where passing by specifically for the hadith to be recorded, and  then deconstruct the homes of the Thamud and reconstruct the Nabaethian homes when the troop had passed. He is Allah he can do anything.

Salaam Alaikum.

True, you did respond, and I responded to your response.

I think the idea of God replacing the Nabataean tombs with the 'homes' of the Thamud during Muhammad's journey and then making them back into the 'homes' of the Thamud is pretty far fetched. It would be like Him purposefully bringing the world to an end in 1975 just to prove the Jehovah's Witnesses were right.

Even if this were to have happened, it still wouldn't make up for the mistake in the Quran, which describes the homes of the Thamud in the present form.

So those are their houses, desolate* because of the wrong they had done. Indeed in that is a sign for people who know.
Surat An-Naml [27:52] - The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran
* according to Corpus Quran, the word is "ruined".

Tafsir Ibn Abbas explains this verse in this way:

(See, yonder are their dwellings empty and in ruins because they did wrong) because of their idolatry. (Lo! Herein) in that which We did to them (is indeed a portent) a sign and an admonition (for a people who have knowledge) who believe in that which was done to them.

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=27&tAyahNo=52&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Was the Quran addressed only to people in the 7th century, or to humanity?

Originally posted by quintessential quintessential wrote:


But honestly the most likely reason is:
The guy who is making this claim is purposefully misinterpreting and concocting a vain theory to suit his needs.

Please show me how my sources are wrong, or how I am misinterpreting them. I have provided a link to every single one I have cited, so it shouldn't be a problem.

Cite me some academic sources that demonstrate that the buildings carved out of rock at Madain Saleh were carved by the Thamud before the time of Moses, or better yet, that the Thamud carved homes out of rock to begin with.

Go ahead.


Originally posted by quintessential quintessential wrote:


In any case what I was saying to Naba was simply that whenever you have one person that believes in Tauhid and you have another that believes in Trinity the only discussion that should take place is one about trying to dispel trinity from his mind, if you can't succeed in that then the two should respectfully go in peace away from each other until the final day when all arguments are settled.....that is my understanding of the Sunnah of Dawa. Naba has already cited the verse in the Quran. There is a veil over some people that they will never see through. Accept that and move on.

There is no way you can dispel the Trinity from my mind, because the Trinity is the nature of the one God. I am, however, willing to hear and discuss your opposition to it, respectfully.

In spite of your words about the veil that is allegedly over some people, you have been unable to disprove that the buildings carved out of rock at Al Hijr were made by the Nabataeans between 200 BC and AD 200 and not the Thamud from the time before Moses; or prove that the Thamud carved buildings out of rock at Madain Saleh.

There is an obvious mistake in both the Quran and hadith about the buildings at Al Hijr.


Edited by TG12345 - 25 October 2013 at 8:01pm
Back to Top
Abu Loren View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 June 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1646
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Abu Loren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 October 2013 at 2:28am
Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:




We see not only more evidence pointing to the fact that the Nabataeans were the ones who carved buildings out of mountains at Madain Saleh, now it is looking like the Thamud did not build any permanent settlements or kingdoms to begin with!



You can present all the scholarly work there is on Thamud you want but they have no meaning to the actual people who lived there. This is because we do not know exactly when they occupied the area and only God knows as He tells us in the Qur'an that He completely destroyed them leaving just their dwellings.

Now you can dig and twist and turn in whichever way it pleases you as you have an agenda from the time you joined this site. That is ok with me as I cannot judge you only God can. As I keep saying to you, have an answer ready as you will be question on the Day of Resurrection as you are challenging the words of Allah Subhana Wa Taa'ala.

The following verse comes to mind about you.

Sahih International
He created man from a sperm-drop; then at once, he is a clear adversary. 16:4
Back to Top
TG12345 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Male
Joined: 16 December 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 1146
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TG12345 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 October 2013 at 7:48am
Originally posted by NABA NABA wrote:

At tg12345 I have shown u the preface of Abdullah yusuf Ali

Yusuf Ali's preface does not provide any sources or citations for his claim.

Originally posted by NABA NABA wrote:


and also the fact that no organization had said Quran is wrong and that's true because Quran is the book of truth, it is the word of Allah. [quote]
That is like saying that no religion states Hinduism is wrong, because there is surah of Bible verse that says "Hinduism is a false religion".

The Muslim as well as non-Muslim scholarly and archaeological sources I have cited all point to the fact that the buildings carved out of rock at Al Hijr were made by the Nabataeans, not the Thamud before Moses.

[QUOTE=NABA]
At caring heart since I m amMuslim those who don't believe in Quran means they dont believe in words of Allah, for eg Allah forbids trinity in ch 4 v 171 of Quran but tg is not believing in it, Ch 112 v 1-4-say Allah is one, he is eternal, he is neither born nor give birth, there is nothing like him.but still tg12345 believes that God died.

True. According to what NABA believes, I am a disbeliever.
Back to Top
NABA View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Male
Joined: 13 December 2012
Location: India
Status: Offline
Points: 867
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NABA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 October 2013 at 9:12am
There is obvious mistake about bible in case of mark ch 16 v 17-18, u even accepted Quran is written by unworldly means inside u believe Quran is the word of Allah.

Edited by NABA - 26 October 2013 at 9:13am
Back to Top
TG12345 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Male
Joined: 16 December 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 1146
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TG12345 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 October 2013 at 7:08pm
Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:


We see not only more evidence pointing to the fact that the Nabataeans were the ones who carved buildings out of mountains at Madain Saleh, now it is looking like the Thamud did not build any permanent settlements or kingdoms to begin with!


Originally posted by Abu Loren Abu Loren wrote:


You can present all the scholarly work there is on Thamud you want but they have no meaning to the actual people who lived there.

Well, the people who lived there died long before either the Quran was written or archaeologists studied the area, so neither of them would have any meaning on them.
Originally posted by Abu Loren Abu Loren wrote:


 This is because we do not know exactly when they occupied the area and only God knows as He tells us in the Qur'an that He completely destroyed them leaving just their dwellings.

We actually do know when the area was occupied by the Nabataeans, and when it was occupied by the people prior to them (Lihyanites, Thamud, others). We also know who carved buildings out of rock at Al Hijr. It was the Nabataeans. The Thamud did not.

Muslim as well as non-Muslim archaeologists and scholars have been able to date the structures at Al Hijr, and to discover who lived there and when.

Their findings clearly show that the Quran's account is false. So you choose to ignore them.
Originally posted by Abu Loren Abu Loren wrote:


Now you can dig and twist and turn in whichever way it pleases you as you have an agenda from the time you joined this site.

I came to this site with my purpose for being on it laid out for everyone to see. I came to debate and challenge, and to be debated and challenged.
Originally posted by Abu Loren Abu Loren wrote:


 That is ok with me as I cannot judge you only God can.

He will indeed judge me, as He will judge you. I do not judge you or condemn you either.
Originally posted by Abu Loren Abu Loren wrote:


 As I keep saying to you, have an answer ready as you will be question on the Day of Resurrection as you are challenging the words of Allah Subhana Wa Taa'ala.

I am not challenging the words of Allah, I am challenging the Quran.
Originally posted by Abu Loren Abu Loren wrote:


The following verse comes to mind about you.

Sahih International
He created man from a sperm-drop; then at once, he is a clear adversary. 16:4

Unfortunately, the author of this verse impersonated God.

He made a huge and obvious mistake in attributing the Nabataean mountain-carved buildings at Madain Saleh to the Thamud. This would be like someone claiming that St. Peter's Basilica was built by the Sadducees during the time of Jesus. The difference is that a person who makes such a claim would be off by some 300 years, while the author of the Quran was off by more than 1,000.


Edited by TG12345 - 26 October 2013 at 7:13pm
Back to Top
TG12345 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Male
Joined: 16 December 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 1146
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TG12345 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 October 2013 at 7:11pm
Originally posted by NABA NABA wrote:

There is obvious mistake about bible in case of mark ch 16 v 17-18, u even accepted Quran is written by unworldly means inside u believe Quran is the word of Allah.

Mark 16:17-18 is an addition to the Bible, so the mistake is not in the Bible but these verses which were added later.

Allah is unworldly. So are demons. So are angels. So is Satan.

I don't know who was the author of the Quran, but I know it wasn't Allah.


Edited by TG12345 - 26 October 2013 at 7:14pm
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1920212223 25>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.