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rami View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Maryga
    Posted: 12 October 2005 at 10:54pm
Bi simillahir rahmanir raheem

Maryga consider this your first warning, if you have not read the forum guidlines that is something i can not force you to do.

Ignorance of them is not an excuse.

I deleeted your post becouse a forum bug prevented me from moderating it. What you said will not be tolerated this is an Islamic website and insulting the shafii madhhab an established an accpted madhhab wont stand. If you can not address the Issues do not post in this section this is Islam for non muslims not Quran and Sunnah discussion!

When a post is closed it means the discussion of the topic will no longer take place, if you think Insulting a scholar is something small that is your standards but by Islamic standards it is an enormity. If you dont think that isnt a good enough excuse for closing a post that has little relavence on the standard of this forum clearly stated in the guidlines.

If you think i closed it becouse of the discussion then you should go and check the womens section were this same topic was discussed beffore.


Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2005 at 5:28pm

O honourable, big and mighty Rami, why do you hide behind false pretences? Not one person agreed with what you had posted on the FGM thread. I worry about Islam being defiled by ignorant people like yourself and innocent and helpless females being harmed. 

There was nothing untoward in what I had posted and you should have allowed people to judge. You saId "I deleted your post becouse a forum bug prevented me from moderating it." 

I don't believe it. I have not insulted any madhab rather it is your understanding. Here is what I had posted earlier

 �The earlier thread was closed without a solid reason. The only reason I see is because the only person Mr Rami who supports this practise did not have the capacity to reason with the other Muslims and non-Muslims who oppose this practise and who know for sure that it is not an Islamic practise. He states that there was abuse of the scholars, I have read so many threads on this forum where non-Muslims abuse the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) and yet the threads are allowed to continue. On the FGM thread the only abuse I saw was Qaradwi was called a quack by Begbie who had initiated that thread. I don't see why we can't take such little criticism. But in my opinion this is just a cover. The reason why that thread was closed is because the moderator Rami promotes this hideous practise be it FGC or FGM under the guise of the Shafi Madhab.  

I appeal to all the Muslims on this forum to openly condemn this practise which has never been sanctioned by Allah in the Quran, nor did the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) recommend this. This is totally wrong and the ignorant who practise this upon the innocent and helpless female children should be educated about the crime that they commit. Let us be open to the criticism about the �scholars� who call this �optional�, as clearly there is no justification whatsoever why this hideous practise should continue.

Allah has said in the Quran that I have made Islam easy for you to follow and why are we allowing these deviations by keeping silent? Allah has also said that He has created us in the most perfect moulds and who are we to be meddling with His creation? Let Mr Rami or anyone who practises or supports this practise explain what is good about this and why it should not be stopped. If it was practised in the past because now we don�t have �experts� in this disgusting practise, then let us be prepared to condemn it.�



Edited by Maryga
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2005 at 8:23pm

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

O honourable, big and mighty Rami, why do you hide behind false pretences? Not one person agreed with what you had posted on the FGM thread. I worry about Islam being defiled by ignorant people like yourself and innocent and helpless females being harmed.

This isnt a way to behave in this month?

I dont need people to agree with me, i was quoting Islamic law of the Shafii madhhab they have the authority to state what is right and what is wrong for the people who follow the madhhab. this is by the consesus of all scholars of Islam not you or me, you have simply ignored what i said and restated your original position ignoring everything that is being said.

Do you know what a madhhab is and what role they play in Islamic law?

Your worry is baseless and unfounded you have not stated what is harmfull with female circumcision.

There was nothing untoward in what I had posted and you should have allowed people to judge. You saId "I deleted your post becouse a forum bug prevented me from moderating it." 

I don't believe it. I have not insulted any madhab rather it is your understanding. Here is what I had posted earlier

People are not responsible for moderating this forum, the topic was closed and therefore closed for discussion.


You dont believe me? why becouse the advantage of deleting your post over deleeting what you say and writing [moderator edited] is?


The following things were wrong with your post.


The earlier thread was closed without a solid reason

acusing a moderator of unethical behaviour while the forum guidlines clearly state that the mentioned behaviour will not be tolerated. read guidlines 1, 2, 3 and 10.


The only reason I see is because the only person Mr Rami who supports this practise did not have the capacity to reason with the other Muslims and non-Muslims who oppose this practise and who know for sure that it is not an Islamic practise.


Commenting on and insulting a moderator. Wrongfully claiming  something as being unislamic after clear evidence has been shown that a ruling does exist in Islam by major scholars on the matter and therfor misguiding muslims and non muslims in a section of the forum the sole purpose of which is to explain the islamic position to non muslims.

He states that there was abuse of the scholars, I have read so many threads on this forum where non-Muslims abuse the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) and yet the threads are allowed to continue.

Acusing the moderators and the Administrators of the forum of intentionaly alowing insulting comments to our prophet to remain and therfore bringing there Islam and Iman into question. This is slander in the least. Many people make an effort to report these posts as the moderators can not posibly read everypost these people can inform you as to how such posts are dealt with after they have been brought to the atention of the moderators.


On the FGM thread the only abuse I saw was Qaradwi was called a quack by Begbie who had initiated that thread. I don't see why we can't take such little criticism. But in my opinion this is just a cover.


This was in violation of the guidlines stated above, Why havnt you read the forum guidlines beffore posting, abiding by them is your responsibility? Here you have also acused a moderator of deceptive behaviour again based on mere suspicion something haram in islam. Slandering a scholar and slander in general is an enormity in islam, this is the Islamic standard.


The reason why that thread was closed is because the moderator Rami promotes this hideous practise be it FGC or FGM under the guise of the Shafi Madhab. 


Insulting the shafii madhhab. Where bigbie insulted one scholar you have managed to sideline and render the shafii madhhab irelavent a guise and an excuse. All this after i clearly stated that Imam Shafii the scholar after whom the school of thought is named held the legal opinion that the evidence for male circumsision  also aplied to females. I also gave you a link to sunnipath.com an islamic legal site giving opinions in the shafii as well as the Hanafi madhhabs clearly showing that this was a valid opnion of the shafii madhhab as well as stating that
This is what the Hanafis considered an 'token' for the husband. So now you have two legal schools of thought stating the practice is not haram and accptable to practice in Islam.


Reliance of the traveler an islamic manual which summerises the legal rulings of Imam Nawawi one of the major mujtahid scholars in Islam and the shafii madhhab states,

e4.3 Circumcision is obligatory (O: for both men and women. For men it consists of removing the prepuce from the penis, and for women removing the prepuce (Arabic, bazr) of the clitoris(n:not the clitoris itself, as some mistakenly assert).(A:Hanbalis hold that circumsision of women is not obligatory but sunna, while Hanfis consider it a mere courtesy to the husband.)


A. is the comentry on this law by Sheikh Abd al Wakil Durubi
O. is an excerpt from the commentary of Sheikh Umar Barakat.

n. are comments by the author.


I am Hanafi, but i am not ashamed to state what is clearly a acceptable practice by Islamic standards, simply becouse some westerners have made some trumped up charges which are clearly ignorant of basic facts we should not be ashamed or embaressed to state what has been an islamic practice from the time of the prophet!


I also mentioned some legal principles/maxims which applied to this issue but i wont go into them.


I appeal to all the Muslims on this forum to openly condemn this practise which has never been sanctioned by Allah in the Quran, nor did the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) recommend this.........as clearly there is no justification whatsoever why this hideous practise should continue.


This is completely inaccurate, female
circumcision like male circumcision predates islam and christianity, which means that it was practiced in the time of the prophet and something that is sunnah as there is nothing in the Quran and sunnah prohibiting it. Unless a clear prohibition exists in islam against this you can not even state it is haram that is for Allah alone.


another legal maxim states �The norm in regard to things
is that of permissibility� (Al-aslu fil-ashyaa� al-Ibahah). Permissibility in other words is the natural state and will therefore prevail until there is evidence to warrant a departure from that position. This maxim is based on a general reading of the relevant evidence in the Qur�an and Sunnah. Thus when we read in the Qur�an that God �has created all that is in the earth for your benefit� (2:29), and also the hadith that states: �whatever God has made halal is halal and whatever He has rendered as haram is haram, and all that over which He has remained silent is
forgiven�, the conclusion is drawn that we are allowed to utilise the resources of the earth for our benefit, and that unless something is specifically declared forbidden, it is presumed to be permissible.


You can find an explanation of what a legal Maxim is here and what they mean in islamic law.


When something is harmfull in islam it becomes haram for us, no one can even state what is harmfull with female circumcision, our scholars would not allow a practice to continue for 1400 years while it is harmfull  simply to uphold mere custom
this is against islamic law.


Allah has also said that He has created us in the most perfect moulds and who are we to be meddling with His creation? Let Mr Rami or anyone who practises or supports this practise explain what is good about this and why it should not be stopped.


I have already proven your asertions to be incorect. There is no need to go into benefits as the discussion on female circumcision has been closed and any further comments in the near future will result in the person being banned.


This is your second warning mary, the next time you will be banned. I sugest you tone down your comments dont make them personnel.




Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2005 at 8:33pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

here are some article about Islams four schools of thought.

Understanding the Four Madhhabs, talks about history and development.

What is a Madhhab?

Why Muslims Follow Madhhabs

Would you advise individuals to study hadith from al-Bukhari and Muslim on their own?


Edited by rami
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 October 2005 at 8:32am
It is interesting that Rami closes a thread on a topic started by another member (and denying them the chance to post material) and goes on to discuss the same topic started by..Rami who goes on to present Rami's side of the argument!! In addition, Rami warns me that if a topic is closed, then that is the end of the matter and yet, breaks their own rules by discussing the same topic !!!

What kind of a forum are you running here ?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 October 2005 at 3:05pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

My reply is a responce to serious acusations made against me, i adressed each point raised. The accusation were relating to female circumcision how on earth can you not mention it when you are accused of something becouse of it.

If i recal i deleeted the original post rather than reply to it and even if half of what you assume is true you would have been banned by now.

This is an islamic forum this behaviour you are displaying above is not welcome here if you have concerns state them in a civil manner.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 October 2005 at 5:08pm
In my opinion, it you were willing to discuss the issues raised, you would have been better to have opened the thread again. Either the topic is closed for everybody or it isn't closed at all. Which is it ?

And why the antagonism ?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 October 2005 at 11:18pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Accusing someone of something in Islam is a serious thing, in the west it is taken with a grain of salt most of the time ie having no consaquence but in islam it is a sin if you are wrong. You should understand this if you want to understand why each point had to be dealt with, it was a very serious matter.

Your sarcasm came across as being antagonistic in the context of this post, i didnt think viewing them as light hearted was correct.

The topic is closed if you need a big sign indicating which it is, this matter does not concern you or is relating to you in any way so dont assume opening another post part tres will be allowed.


Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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