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Aussie View Drop Down
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    Posted: 19 February 2013 at 8:47pm
It would seem I posted this thread in a rarely visited sub forum, I hope it's ok to repost it here
"If Muhammad was illiterate, how did he know Classical Arabic?"

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Mahdi The Seeke View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mahdi The Seeke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2013 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by Aussie Aussie wrote:

It would seem I posted this thread in a rarely visited sub forum, I hope it's ok to repost it here<table ="tableBorder" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" align="center"><t><tr ="msgTableRow"><td ="msgLineDevider" height="150" valign="top">
   
   <div ="msg" style=":left; overflow:auto;">
   "If Muhammad was illiterate, how did he know Classical Arabic?"

   </td></tr></t></table>

he spoke it?
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Nur_Ilahi View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nur_Ilahi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 February 2013 at 2:04am
Originally posted by Aussie Aussie wrote:


   "If Muhammad was illiterate, how did he know Classical Arabic?"

Dear Aussie,

The answer is because he had the Most Wonderful Teacher that no one would ever have. Allah Al-Aleem - Allah All-Knowing.

Salam.
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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nothing View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nothing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 February 2013 at 8:15pm
Originally posted by Aussie Aussie wrote:

"If Muhammad was illiterate, how did he know Classical Arabic?"


I got this saying from Muhammad Haykal book called "Muhammad" or "History of Muhammad":

I am the most Arab among you, for I am of the tribe of Quraysh and I have been brought up among the tribe of Banu Sa'ad bin Bakr.

It seems according to his definition the race of a person is by the language he speaks. But not only that, he boast as above other Arabs around him for his pure Arabic. In today's word he spoke classical Arabic.

Or it can be interpreted as though somebody point a finger to him and said:
"You don't look like an Arab to me", in which he pointed a language is the only matter of who is who.

Hope that helps.
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Experiential View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Experiential Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 February 2013 at 3:45pm

Can a Muslim here please clarify. Are  the Koran and the Arabic language divine miracles or not?

 
Because whats interesting is that the early copies of the Koran probably were not in Classical Arabic as we know it today at all.

Christoph Luxenberg in his book, “The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran,” says the language of the early copies of the Qur'an was not exclusively Arabic, but were based in the Syro-Aramaic dialect.

Luxenberg's states that the Aramaic (not Arabic) language which was common through the Middle East during the early period of Islam had a strong influence on the creation and meaning of the Koran. Not Arabic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christoph_Luxenberg

 

Another Koran scholar by the name of Dr Gerd R  Puin states -

“… the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself.”

 

(Lester, Toby (January 1999). "What Is the Koran?". Atlantic Monthly.)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mahdi The Seeke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 February 2013 at 6:10am
Originally posted by Experiential Experiential wrote:

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Can a Muslim here please clarify. Are<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </SPAN>the Koran and the Arabic language divine miracles or not?


<FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> 

<FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Because whats interesting is that the early copies of the Koran probably were not in Classical Arabic as we know it today at all.

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Christoph Luxenberg in his book, “The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran,” says the language of the early copies of the Qur'an was not exclusively Arabic, but were based in the Syro-Aramaic dialect.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Luxenberg's states that the Aramaic (not Arabic) language which was common through the <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on">Middle East</st1:place> during the early period of Islam had a strong influence on the creation and meaning of the Koran. Not Arabic.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal>[COLOR=#800080 size=3 face="Times New Roman">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christoph_Luxenberg[/COLOR">


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Another Koran scholar by the name of Dr Gerd R<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </SPAN>Puin states -


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">“… the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself.”


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">(Lester, Toby (January 1999). "What Is the Koran?". Atlantic Monthly.)

anybody, especially one with a hidden agenda, can say anything. does not make it true. let those so called scholars produce proof for what they are saying. scholars are only special to illiterate people who cannot read for themselves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Experiential Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2013 at 1:00pm

How do you know they have a hidden agenda when you know nothing about them?

 

If you want proof – here it is. In 1972 a Koran was found in Sanaa Yemen that is the oldest Koran in existence. This Koran differs significantly from the present standard one.

The Sanaa Koran showed versions of text written over even earlier washed off versions.

 

These differences show the Koran has been distorted, perverted, revised, modified and corrected. Textual alterations have taken place over the years by human hands.

 

It also shows the claim in the Koran that nobody can alter the words of God is not true.

 

Its funny you say that “scholars are only special to illiterate people who cannot read for themselves,” when most of the Muslim world do not even know Arabic to read the Koran for themselves.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nur_Ilahi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 February 2013 at 6:14pm
Originally posted by Experiential Experiential wrote:

How do you know they have a hidden agenda when you know nothing about them?

If you want proof – here it is. In 1972 a Koran was found in Sanaa Yemen that is the oldest Koran in existence. This Koran differs significantly from the present standard one.
The Sanaa Koran showed versions of text written over even earlier washed off versions.

These differences show the Koran has been distorted, perverted, revised, modified and corrected. Textual alterations have taken place over the years by human hands.

It also shows the claim in the Koran that nobody can alter the words of God is not true.

Its funny you say that “scholars are only special to illiterate people who cannot read for themselves,” when most of the Muslim world do not even know Arabic to read the Koran for themselves.


The sources that you quoted dear Experiential, are all from non-Muslims base. So the hidden agenda is, of course to question the authenticity of the Quran. However you will not find any Muslim sources that says the Quran is not the word of God.

Sadly I can quote you many non-Muslim sources that acknowledged that the Bible is not a word of God.

Indeed Allah Our Creator had guaranteed in the Quran that no one will ever be able to "distort, pervert, revise, modify and correct" as you mentioned.

Indeed, it is We (Allah) who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We (Allah) will be its guardian. Surah Al-Hijr 15:9

May Allah bless you with hidayah.
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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