BELIEVE OR DIE

Hi Nirvana,

I see you have added something:
Quote: �I do not believe any religious scripture.� --- If we add that to your signature, we get:
Quote: I'm going to create Man and Woman with original sin, impregnate a woman with myself so I can be born, then kill myself as a sacrifice to myself to save you from sin that I originally condemned you to.

--- Where did you get this knowledge of God, saying, �I'm going to create Man and Woman?�

Webber said you are Agnostic, so I think that means that you believe there is a God, or a Creator.
--- So somebody told you, or you read, --- that God created a man and a woman, Adam and Eve.

I guess Webber was right that I went a little too deep by giving you Scriptures to show that God created Adam and Eve without sin, --- but, having free will, they were tempted to sin.
--- Though they sinned, they repented and were forgiven. --- And through the 4000 years from then to your next event, --- God gave the descendants of Adam and Eve rules and guidelines to follow, to be restored to a right relationship with Him. --- Multitudes were obedient and righteous before God, and would have been saved.

--- Then it got to a point where the people that should have been following God, began to worship other gods and idols.
God sent messengers to warn them of their sin. Those who repented could be restored to righteousness and be saved. --- It was their choice.

When you say �God knew they would sin,� --- that is not verified in Scripture, but since you don�t believe Scripture, it is your idea. --- As I said, God was taking a risk by creating them with a free will.

--- However, it is the same with us today, we are born with a will of our own. --- If as children we are loved and cared for, we grow up thinking that this is a pretty good world that God has created for us.
If we have been neglected and abused we relate that to God whom we think controls everything, and we say, why do people suffer, --- and you are right, --- �from suicide murderers, to Catholic Priests.�

--- Did you know that in many places, they have taken every Bible and New Testament out of the schools, --- but they teach about �alternative lifestyles,� --- homosexuality and lesbianism.
That is not from God but from degenerated men. --- Even spiritual wickedness in high places, where men in positions of authority have been deceived by Satan.

If you choose to blame God for the problems man has gotten himself, and the world, into, --- and since there is no other God to go to for help, but Him, --- this leaves us in a real dilemma, doesn�t it?


Placid

my signature only shows a summary of christian belief. it is absurd to me that is why i do not believe it.

Totally absurd to me too. Of course it's not exactly accurate either, which is the whole point you want to make. Just wondering if you've tossed that summary around Christians who do believe it? I'm sure you'd have to repeat it a few times. This is what I meant about human logic tho. Teach it to your children and they will argue it as truth for you without question.

i do not know how the world began, but i do not believe the account of adam , eve and the talking serpent.]/quote] From what I understand most Catholics don't believe it either. Myself, I don't believe it as manstream Christians do either. I'd only explain it as I see it if you asked. Pretty sure I'm safe there. i use religious scripture only to point out what i find unbelievable, not because i believe in it.   Antaganostic...keeps Christians on their toes. ;) I haven't seen you use scripture yet tho.     please do not think what you believe is above me. we all have the same brains and are capable of perceiving each other's perspective.   Sorry, was not my intention to give you that impression. We all have the same brains, (grey matter) but perspective is built on rearing, teaching, culture, and neuron attraction, amungst other things.    try reading up more on why other people eg muslims do not believe in your religion to see a different perspective. do not simply rely on christian sources.   Yeah, I have studied a few religions for a couple years...maybe a few more. I only consider the NT as a Christian source. I dropped their dogma and doctrines many years ago when it didn't make sense. I was actually quite angry at them for tying to make me believe some of their "must believe" doctrines. Ask them why their beliefs aren't in the NT and the stories get longer. I held my own in a few discussions before I was outnumbered and it was obvious it was time for me to go.   I never held that against God, but I probably asked Him a few times what was wrong with His people.    [quote] it is up to you if you want to pray for me. i know it has no effect.

Placid wrote: Hi Nirvana, Quote: I use religious scripture only to point out what I find unbelievable, not because I believe in it. Response: --- So I see from your response to Webber that you have done some studying. --- Then rather than rehearse stories that you may already have read, I want to give the reason why I believe the Scriptures. --- It says this in 2 Peter 1: 16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: �This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.� 18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. 19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. --- It was the Holy Spirit that spoke through the Prophets, and that is what prophecy was. --- For example, the Prophecy in Isaiah that �a virgin would conceive,� was given over 700 years before Jesus was born. And here is a prophecy that was given about 67 AD, which is being fulfilled today, in 2 Timothy 3: 1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. --- (Lots of religion but not much Faith.) This is the time in which we live, is it not? --- When greedy men cripple their own countries, --- and the world runs wildly after entertainment, sports and immorality. --- The internet occupies the mind, --- and terrorism and strife, are destroying the moral societies, and the beautiful world that God gave us. --- Our choice is either to trust God, --- that He will intervene soon to restore righteousness, which is another prophecy. --- Or we can blame God for what is happening. Placid

And here is a prophecy that was given about 67 AD, which is being fulfilled today, in 2 Timothy 3: 1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. --- (Lots of religion but not much Faith.) This is the time in which we live, is it not? --- When greedy men cripple their own countries, --- and the world runs wildly after entertainment, sports and immorality. --- The internet occupies the mind, --- and terrorism and strife, are destroying the moral societies, and the beautiful world that God gave us.

this is the way it has always been, and the way it always will be.

Hi Nirvana,

Quote: 2 Timothy 3: 1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come:
--- This is the way it has always been, and the way it always will be.

Response: --- I agree with you partly on this, but in these last days there are more weapons of mass destruction and more greed and selfish desire by men to dominate the world, or their part of it.
So that is the negative, but since you mentioned the sacrifice of Jesus in your signature,

--- Let�s consider the positive result.

In the OT God said, �Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.� --- A quite hard saying.
--- I will explain it simply without detail, but if you, or Webber are interested, I can explain it further.
--- However, it is sufficient to say that Adam and Eve were created perfect, in perfect bodies in a perfect environment, --- with the life support system of the Holy Spirit of God. --- When they sinned, by being disobedient to God, they had to be removed from the Garden and the Holy Spirit had to be withdrawn, and they died Spiritually, --- because the Holiness of God could not remain in unholy vessels.

They were given a new life support system on earth, the circulatory blood system in a flesh and blood body, like the animals had, and like we have today. --- And the blood body of man was really an offense to God. --- So God gave the Jews laws to follow, which involved coming before Him to confess their sin and to receive guidance and instruction. --- BUT, they had to bring an animal without blemish and kill it, then drain the blood, and --- offer it to God as a pure sacrifice.
--- After the sacrifice, the animal was used for food so there was no waste. --- But the body without blood was the �atonement� for sin. --- Notice that word, �at-one-ment,� --- so, with the pure sacrifice, they were, �at one� --- or �reconciled to God� by their obedient action.   

It continued until the Jews became disobedient and began to worship other gods, of the pagans around them, --- and when they did bring an offering of an animal, rather than it being the unblemished choice animal, it would be the sick or the lame, so they were insulting God.

--- It says in the last book of the OT, in Malachi 1:
8 "And when you offer the blind as a sacrifice, Is it not evil?
And when you offer the lame and sick, Is it not evil?
Offer it then to your governor! Would he be pleased with you?
Would he accept you favorably?� Says the Lord of hosts.

And it says this in Hebrews 10:
5 �Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, �Behold, I have come� In the volume of the book it is written of Me� To do Your will, O God.��
--- So God prepared a body through the virgin birth, who would live in the flesh as a perfect man, and be a perfect Sacrifice for the sin of the world.

Here is what happened. --- Because Satan had caused man to sin, he had the power of death over them, so they remained in a �prison of death� till Jesus came, --- but at the moment Jesus died, the sacrifice for sin was accepted, and Satan�s power over death was destroyed. --- So this is what it says in Matthew 28:
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

--- At the time of Jesus death, the veil of the Temple (the curtain that separated the Holy of Holies where the priests only were allowed to enter) was torn from top to bottom (signifying that God did it, so now the altar of prayer was open to everyone, without having to go through a priest.)
--- And the earth quaked, --- AND THE GRAVES WERE OPENED, AND MANY BODIES OF THE SAINTS WHO HAD FALLEN ASLEEP (in death) WERE RAISED.
--- And after Jesus� resurrection, they went into the holy city (Jerusalem) and appeared to many

(I believe that after His resurrection, when He ascended to heaven, that they went too, and since then, every �born again� Christian who dies, --- their soul is caught up to heaven. --- No more waiting in a state of death, till the last judgment, ---because they have already been judged �righteous� before God.
--- They have been �Born Again� Spiritually by the Holy Spirit that had to be withdrawn from Adam and Eve, when they sinned, --- and had died Spiritually, as it says in Genesis.)   


Placid