BELIEVE OR DIE

nirvana wrote: Mr. Nirvana God made us so He can do whatever He wishes right? He is the potter and we are the clay therefore it is His prerogative what He does with his creationthat is simply your belief. your parents brought you into this world. did God ask you if you would abide by His rules before you were conceived?

Hi Nirvana,

Quote from Post 1: Some body likened religion to a robbery/mugging. in religion it is 'believe in this or endure eternal torture' robbers say 'give me your belongings or die'.is it really a choice. nobody wants to get hurt, right. so most end up believing no matter how disturbing their religion is out of fear of eternal torture. what do you think?

Response: --- Most people have a general belief that God exists. --- That God is the First Cause.
--- It is easy to have a negative impression of God from the world we live in, and the many religions to examine. --- However if God is Good, and enjoys His Creation, --- we need to find His will for our lives, so that we enjoy His favor here, --- and have hope and assurance of Eternal life with Him, and others.

In the Zondervan Bible Dictionary, it gives an explanation of God and His creation.
--- First of all, we must accept that there is One God, or One First Cause, that we call God.
--- Secondly we know that He is a Creator, because �all things have been created.�
--- (How He created all things is a mystery, but we don�t need to understand that.)
But we can understand that God is a Good God. --- Two of His Characteristics are Love and Justice, which have been demonstrated in His relation to mankind.

--- But the explanation is this:
God could create whatever He desired. --- He created different orders of angels, that were all servants to Him. --- Because God is Love, He would also Love what He created, --- but He desired something or someone to Love Him in response to His Love for them. --- Because Love cannot be forced, to be a true Love, nor would it be Justice to force Love, --- it would have to be a voluntary Love, in response to God�s care and affection for them.
Because of what is written in Scripture we understand that God created the Cherubim angels, with the freedom to choose. --- And the desire was that they would choose to Love and honor God in response to His Love and provision for them. Their freedom of choice would allow them to Love and worship God forever in Eternity, --- or reject God�s Love, follow their own way, --- and �suffer the consequences.�
--- While this was a �test� to the angels, it also provided God with those who Loved Him by choice. (End of explanation.)

--- There is no knowledge of how long this remained without some reaction to freedom of choice, but eventually there was a rebellion by the one who became the leader, �The Lucifer� or �Light-Bringer.�
However, two thirds of the Cherubim remained true to God. --- The leader, or �The Lucifer� was cast out and a new Leader would have been chosen from among the faithful ones.

The one who rebelled became proud and self-seeking, and it said in Ezekiel 28:
12 �You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
14 �You were the anointed cherub who covers;
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.
17 �Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;

--- And it continues with these words in Isaiah 14:
13 For you have said in your heart: �I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.�
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the Pit.

This explains that God did not �create� sin. --- But this one, was perfect in all his ways --- �Until iniquity was found in him.� --- So the sins of Pride and Self-Exaltation �developed� in the heart of this one.
--- And he was around to be the tempter in the later creation of a perfect man, --- Adam.


Placid

Hi Nirvana,

Quote: Since your God is all knowing, He knew some people would not love Him, since that is the nature He created them with. and since He is all knowing, he knew all the suffering that would happen to mankind. He planned it that way. Your God is a sadist. Your God manifests His love by making innocent people suffer.

Response: --- Sorry to be so slow in answering, --- we have been away for a while and I have neglected to answer you.

--- As I explained, if God was going to create those who would love Him in response to His love for them, then it carried the risk of those who, by their own will, preferred not to love God, --- so they would not receive His blessing until they repented and came back to the point where they left.

In Genesis it says that God created Adam and Eve and placed them in the Garden of Eden, or Garden of Delights. --- They were in a perfect environment, and could have lived forever in harmony with God.
--- Adam and Eve disobeyed God, so lost that status, --- but they repented later, and continued on in a different state, --- and had children like themselves who were subject to sin, --- but God loved them.
He made every provision for them to know His blessing, if they followed His will, --- however since sin was in the world, it brought a lot of people down, by them being tempted away from God, and following their own will and ambition.


Quote: I'm going to create Man and Woman with original sin, impregnate a woman with myself so I can be born, then kill myself as a sacrifice to myself to save you from sin that I originally condemned you to.

--- This is your signature, --- which, after Adam and Eve, transports us ahead some 4000 years, to the time of Jesus, --- and if this was true, it projects a pretty hopeless state, doesn�t it.

Let�s examine it. --- Because God is Holy, He created Holy vessels to commune with, so Adam and Eve would be in harmony with Him. --- But with a free will, they weren't robots, they didn�t have to obey God, --- and with a tempter that wanted to destroy God�s plan, --- they were deceived, --- and they sinned.

I am not sure whether you are a man or woman, and whether you would favor the Bible or the Quran, but I will give you a few verses from the Quran. --- Remember in the post above I said that the beautiful Cherubim who became the Lucifer was cast down through pride, and self exaltation?
--- Well this Satan or Iblis continued to exist and became that tempter. ---It tells us more in Surah 7:
13 (God) said (to Satan): "Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)."
16 He said: "Because thou hast thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way:
17 "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)."
18 (God) said: "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee, - Hell will I fill with you all.

19 �O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and enjoy (its good things) as ye wish: but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."
20 Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live for ever."
21 And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser.
22 So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"
23 They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost."
24 (God) said: "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood, - for a time."
25 He said: "Therein shall ye live, and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)."

26 O ye Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness, - that is the best. Such are among the Signs of God, that they may receive admonition!
27 O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them:

--- Adam and Eve originally had a robe or �shroud� of righteousness, but when they sinned the glory of that righteousness faded, and they knew they had sinned. --- They tried to hide, but they were no longer holy, so they had to be removed from the presence of God. (Verse 24-25.)

--- That is just the first part of your signature, but I don�t want to make the post too long, so I will continue later.

2 Peter 3:9 --- �God is longsuffering (patient) toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.�


Placid

Hi Nirvana, considering you are agnostic I'm assuming you have spent much time listening to the words of Kurt No-brains. (Well, just what he left on the livingroom wall.) His music is a long sad tale. Suicide, a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Then again, life with Courtney...