BIBLE:NOBODY CAN DIE FOR ANOTHER&#039;S SINS

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Posted: 06 April 2013 at 8:01pm

Mahdi The Seeke wrote:

isaiah 52 and 53 are about the nation of Israel.

You are wrong for the following reasons �

The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer. Israel is never described as sinless. See for example Isaiah 1:4.

The figure described in Isaiah 53 suffers, dies, and rises again to atone for his people's sins. The Hebrew word used in Isaiah 53:10 for "sin-offering" is "asham," which is a technical term meaning "sin-offering."

See how it is used in Leviticus chapters 5 and 6. Isaiah 53 describes a sinless and

perfect sacrificial lamb who takes upon himself the sins of others so that they

might be forgiven.

Can anyone really claim that the terrible suffering of the Jewish people, however

undeserved and unjust, atones for the sins of the world?

Whoever Isaiah 53 speaks of, the figure described suffers and dies in order to

provide a legal payment for sin so that others can be forgiven. This cannot be true

of the Jewish people as a whole, or of any other mere human.

The prophet speaking is Isaiah himself, who says the sufferer was punished for "the transgression of my people," according to verse 8. Who are the people of Isaiah? Israel. So the sufferer of Isaiah 53 suffered for Israel. So how could he be Israel?

The figure of Isaiah 53 dies and is buried according to verses 8 and 9. The people of Israel have never died as a whole. They have been out of the land on two occasions and have returned, but they have never ceased to be among the living. Yet Jesus died, was buried, and rose again.

Of whom does Isaiah speak? He speaks of the Messiah, as many ancient rabbis concluded. The second verse of Isaiah 53 makes it crystal clear. The figure grows up as "a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground." The shoot springing up is beyond reasonable doubt a reference to the Messiah, and, in fact, it is a common Messianic reference in Isaiah and elsewhere.

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Posted: 06 April 2013 at 8:04pm

Mahdi The Seeke wrote:

Yes you are correct Satans
payment is eternity in hell. then stop saying stuff that does not make sense. Like
Ephesians 6:12 makes it clear that Satan rules the earth.

Now satan, not God, rules the world. Hmmmm. I would immediately discard any book that said that, i don't know about you.

As you see from the book of Genesis in the Torah and Ephesians 6.12 from the Injil The world is ultimately Gods but under Satan�s temporary control.

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Ephesians 6.12

Have you watched the news lately. Lots of problems in the world? Not exactly perfect is it? God ultimately rules but Satan has temporary control and influence.

Makes sense to me. Anyway I�d discard a book like the Quran that says the sun sets in a muddy pond !

Edited by Experiential - 06 April 2013 at 8:04pm

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Posted: 07 April 2013 at 10:20am

Experiential wrote:

Mahdi The Seeke wrote:

isaiah 52 and 53 are about the nation of Israel.

You are wrong for the following reasons �

<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p> </o:p>

<UL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" =disc>
<LI style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" =Msonormal>The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer. <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Israel</st1:place></st1:country-region> is never described as sinless. See for example Isaiah 1:4.
<o:p> </o:p>

<UL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" =disc>
<LI style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" =Msonormal>The figure described in Isaiah 53 suffers, dies, and rises again to atone for his people's sins. The Hebrew word used in Isaiah 53:10 for "sin-offering" is "asham," which is a technical term meaning "sin-offering."
 See how it is used in Leviticus chapters 5 and 6. Isaiah 53 describes a sinless and

perfect sacrificial lamb who takes upon himself the sins of others so that they

might be forgiven.

Can anyone really claim that the terrible suffering of the Jewish people, however

undeserved and unjust, atones for the sins of the world?

Whoever Isaiah 53 speaks of, the figure described suffers and dies in order to

provide a legal payment for sin so that others can be forgiven. This cannot be true

of the Jewish people as a whole, or of any other mere human.

<o:p> </o:p>

<UL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" =disc>
<LI style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" =Msonormal>The prophet speaking is Isaiah himself, who says the sufferer was punished for "the transgression of my people," according to verse 8. Who are the people of Isaiah? <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Israel</st1:place></st1:country-region>. So the sufferer of Isaiah 53 suffered for <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Israel</st1:place></st1:country-region>. So how could he be <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Israel</st1:place></st1:country-region>?
<o:p> </o:p>

<UL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" =disc>
<LI style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" =Msonormal>The figure of Isaiah 53 dies and is buried according to verses 8 and 9. The people of <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Israel</st1:place></st1:country-region> have never died as a whole. They have been out of the land on two occasions and have returned, but they have never ceased to be among the living. Yet Jesus died, was buried, and rose again.
<o:p> </o:p>

<UL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" =disc>
<LI style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" =Msonormal>Of whom does Isaiah speak? He speaks of the Messiah, as many ancient rabbis concluded. The second verse of Isaiah 53 makes it crystal clear. The figure grows up as "a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground." The shoot springing up is beyond reasonable doubt a reference to the Messiah, and, in fact, it is a common Messianic reference in Isaiah and elsewhere.
<o:p> </o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

ask any jew, the people to whom the hebrew Bible was revealed, who the suffering servant is.

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Posted: 07 April 2013 at 10:29am

Experiential wrote:

Mahdi The Seeke wrote:

isaiah 52 and 53 are about the nation of Israel.

You are wrong for the following reasons �

<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p> </o:p>

might be forgiven.

undeserved and unjust, atones for the sins of the world?

of the Jewish people as a whole, or of any other mere human.

<o:p> </o:p>

<UL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" =disc>
<LI style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" =Msonormal>The figure of Isaiah 53 dies and is buried according to verses 8 and 9. The people of <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Israel</st1:place></st1:country-region> have never died as a whole. They have been out of the land on two occasions and have returned, but they have never ceased to be among the living. Yet Jesus died, was buried, and rose again.
<o:p> </o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

�You are My servant, O Israel� (isaiah 41:8)

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http://www.blessisrael.com/Kehilot.html

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Posted: 09 April 2013 at 10:09pm

Mahdi Said

ask any jew, the people to whom the hebrew Bible was revealed, who the suffering servant is.

My Reply

All the first believers were Jews. Jesus was a Jew. Also here are some links to Mesianic believers (Jewish Christians)

http://www.trumpetofsalvation.org/jacob-damkani/

Mahdi Said

�You are My servant, O Israel� (isaiah 41:8)

My Reply

Yes so? This has no relation to Isaiah 52 and 53. Isaiah 52 and 53 are obviously about a person not a nation .eg. Isaiah 52.14

Just as there were many who were appalled at him,

his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being and his form marred beyond human likeness.

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Posted: 13 April 2013 at 5:17am

Experiential wrote:

Mahdi Said<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

ask any jew, the people to whom the hebrew Bible was revealed, who the suffering servant is.

My Reply<o:p></o:p>

All the first believers were Jews. Jesus was a Jew. Also here are some links to Mesianic believers (Jewish Christians)

<o:p> </o:p>

http://www.trumpetofsalvation.org/jacob-damkani/

<o:p> </o:p>

[COLOR=#800080 size=3 face="Times New Roman">http://www.blessisrael.com/Kehilot.html[/COLOR">

<o:p> </o:p>

Mahdi Said<o:p></o:p>

�You are My servant, O Israel� (isaiah 41:8)

My Reply<o:p></o:p>

Yes so? This has no relation to Isaiah 52 and 53. Isaiah 52 and 53 are obviously about a person not a nation .eg. Isaiah 52.14

<o:p> </o:p>

Just as there were many who were appalled at him, <o:p></o:p>

his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being and his form marred beyond human likeness.<o:p></o:p>

israel is referred to as 1 person in other places in the Bible e.g ezekiel 23 so your objection is unfounded

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Posted: 17 April 2013 at 9:33pm

Mahdi Said

Israel is referred to as 1 person in other places in the Bible e.g Ezekiel 23 so your objection is unfounded

My Reply

Considering there was approximately a 100 year time gap between both books and they were written by different authors there is no connection.

The Messiah being referred to in Isaiah is obviously a man not a nation. See below �

Just as there were many who were appalled at him, his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being and his form marred beyond human likeness �

Isaiah 52:14

He was despised and rejected by mankind, (a man איש 'iysh man, male)

of suffering �

Isaiah 53:3

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