well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer

Caringheart wrote: Rational wrote: Placid wrote: Did Muhammad introduce any new laws in the Quran that we should know about? Yes, stop eating pig. Greetings Rational, That's actually not new... it's old... from the Torah.  Salaam, Caringheart

Yes, precisely. And that would explain why Jesus (as) didn't eat pig, because it was in the Torah!

But the fact that you still eat it means it's a new law for you. So maybe it's time you stop eating pig

It's a stronger case for Placid because he believes the Quran. Here's what Placid said in another thread:

Placid wrote: I believe that Muhammad received the revelations in the Quran from the angel Gabriel, who had originally appeared to him in a vision. I have the highest regard for Muhammad and the Quran because I recognize the way God spoke to His Prophets. --- Some by visions, or through tragedies, some by inner inspiration, and some unexpectedly, like Moses, through a burning bush.

And I really respect Placid for saying that.

Notice he used the word "revelations".

The word "revelation":

1. A surprising and previously unknown fact, esp. one made in a dramatic way.

2. The making known of a secret or the unknown.

Therefore, it's obvious that Placid agrees that Mohammad (pbuh) received surprising and previously unknown facts. That's what Placid is saying himself. No?


Edited by Rational - 03 March 2013 at 6:24am

Assalam Alaik Placid,

Placid wrote: Hi Rational, I am sorry if I misunderstood, --- but on page 7 you responded this way to Webber. Quote: Assalamu Alaik Webber, Unlike the christians that claim that Jesus is God, muslims don't believe that Mohammad (pbuh) is God or part of God. Christians claim that because God loves us, He decided to reveal Himself and lived amongst those people for a while then volunteered to die for everyone. But God never revealed Himself before that. So what about the people before the arrival of God (ie. Jesus)? Were they aware about God's form (3 persons in 1) and about the diety of Jesus? Obviously they didn't. Therefore what will thier fate be? Were they not loved? Maybe they are excused because the truth came after thier time. Can that be? --- It sounds like You are a bit �trinitarian� when you say �God decided to live among those people for awhile then volunteered to die, (Was that God that volunteered to die?) --- What about the people before the arrival of God (ie Jesus) --- Were they aware of God�s form (3 persons in 1) It was because of this that I wanted to clarify, that I understand from Scripture that �The Word� came from heaven to indwell the human body of Jesus. Jesus had no earthly father, but God brought Him into �Being� by having His Holy Spirit impregnate Mary. --- So Jesus was born on earth, He had a flesh and blood body and therefore did not come from heaven. But the Word (Logos) was the Manifestation from God that indwelt Jesus, so, my simple understanding is that He had a human body, and a Divine Spirit. You asked about the salvation of those before Jesus, I answered some, but there�s much more, so if you want to hear about what the Scripture says, I will give more. When you ask a question I like to answer it if I can, but we get so easily sidetracked. Placid

You misunderstood. I'm not a "trinitarian". Not even a bit. Allah is One, and I assure you He is not "three persons"! You know this already, I think. Not sure how you would think I'm a bit trinitarian. I clearly stated that "Christians claim that...". I'm saying christians say this, those that say Jesus is God.

Placid wrote: This is what I mean, --- if you understand that Webber and I are not trinitarians, then why did you address Webber as though all Christians believe the same?

I'll say this one more time, I didn't address Webber as though all Christians believe the same. Please stop putting words in my mouth. Stop it now!

You accused me that I enjoy using misinformation in my posts. I asked you to show us where I do this in my posts, give one example. But you ignore it.

You say you believe that Mohammad (pbuh) received "revelations" (as you put it), then you say Mohammad (pbuh) didn't receive anything new.


Edited by Rational - 06 March 2013 at 12:19pm

Hi Rational,

--- It talks about the faith of Abraham in Surah 2:
132 Pickthall: The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).
133 Or were ye present when death came to Jacob, when he said unto his sons: What will ye worship after me? They said: We shall worship thy God, the God of thy fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, One God, and unto Him we have surrendered.
136 Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

132 Yusuf Ali: And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! God hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."
133 Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship Thy God and the God of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac, - the one (True) God: To Him we bow (in Islam)."
136 Say ye: "We believe in God, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to God (in Islam)."

--- So the Faith of Abraham that he handed down to his sons and grandsons was.
133 Pickthall: They said: We shall worship thy God, the God of thy fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, One God, and unto Him we have surrendered.
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133 Yusuf Ali: They said: "We shall worship Thy God and the God of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac, - the one (True) God: To Him we bow (in Islam)."

Here is the difference, --- In Mr Pickthall�s Translation it says, --- �One God and unto Him we have surrendered.�
--- In Yusul Ali�s Translation it says, �The one (True) God: To Him we bow (in Islam)."


I want you to notice one more thing --- I understand that in the translations, they added words in brackets to join sentences, or to clarify the meaning. --- but these added words were not in the Arabic.

In Pickthall 132, we would drop (saying) and (unto Him). In 136, we would drop (O Muslims.)

In Yusuf Ali 133, we would drop (True) and (in Islam). In 136 we would drop (in Islam).

So then the two above statements say this:
Pickthall 133 --- �One God, and unto Him we have surrendered.�
Yusuf Ali 133 --- �The one God: To Him we bow."

--- So Islam always meant �Surrender unto God,� did it not?   Does it mean the same today?

And it speak of the Faith of Abraham in Galatians 3:
9 So then those who are of Faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
26 For you are all sons of God through Faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ�s, then you are Abraham�s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

--- So if we, as Christians are surrendered unto God in following the �Faith of Abraham,� --- what new thing, or what else, do you believe we need to know?


Placid