well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer

Rational wrote: Webber wrote: As for all the people who died pre Jesus, I guess you could ask the same about all who died pre Muhammad. Assalamu Alaik Webber, Unlike the christians that claim that Jesus is God, muslims don't believe that Mohammad (pbuh) is God or part of God. Christians claim that because God loves us, He decided to reveal Himself and lived amongst those people for a while then volunteered to die for everyone. But God never revealed Himself before that. So what about the people before the arrival of God (ie. Jesus)? Were they aware about God's form (3 persons in 1) and about the diety of Jesus? Obviously they didn't. Therefore what will thier fate be? Were they not loved? Maybe they are excused because the truth came after thier time. Can that be? On the other hand, muslims believe that all nations before Mohammad had the message sent to them through previous prophets and messengers. That Mohammad was a man, like previous messengers, and that he recieved the final message for all man kind. The message was always the same, to worship Allah and non other. And those who disbelieved say, "Why has a sign not been sent down to him from his Lord?" You are only a warner, and for every people is a guide. (7) And We did not send any messenger except [speaking] in the language of his people to state clearly for them, and Allah sends astray [thereby] whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise. (4) It is He who has sent among the unlettered a Messenger from themselves reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom - although they were before in clear error (2)

Hi Rational,

Quote: Unlike the christians that claim that Jesus is God, muslims don't believe that Mohammad (pbuh) is God or part of God.
So what about the people before the arrival of Jesus? --- Therefore what will thier fate be? Were they not loved? Maybe they are excused because the truth came after thier time. Can that be?

On the other hand, muslims believe that all nations before Mohammad had the message sent to them through previous prophets and messengers. That Mohammad was a man, like previous messengers, and that he recieved the final message for all man kind. The message was always the same, to worship Allah and non other.

Response: --- Even though Webber and I have said we are not trinitarians, ---because that was a doctrine that came out of a Church meeting in 325 AD, and not out of the Scripture, --- you seem to enjoy using that misinformation in your posts, which doesn�t allow you to think any other way.
Jesus came from God, but was not God. --- God was �manifested� in different ways throughout the Scriptures, but in the New Testament God sent Jesus to be the Messenger of the New Covenant, and the Message was the Gospel, the Good News of Salvation, --- This came through Jesus Himself, --- who was not only a Messenger, but the Messiah and Savior, through whom we can obtain that salvation.

--- In saying �The message was always the same, to worship God,� --- this verifies that the former prophets had the same message as Muhammad brought, and so for those who believed and worshipped God, even before Jesus came, God must have had a plan of salvation for them, as well, don�t you think?

When you say �Muhammad had received the final message for all mankind.� --- How was it different than the message that you say �was the same message for all the prophets?� --- Did Muhammad introduce any new laws in the Quran that we should know about?

Concerning previous plans of salvation:
It appears that God always loved his people and drew them unto Himself, so He would have a plan for their salvation, though it would have to wait for a �resurrection.�
From the time of Adam and Eve on earth, they were told to worship God and obey Him. --- And the first guide was their �conscience� within.
It would seem that for the first approximately 2000 years, the people would be �saved� by Faith in God, worshiping Him, and following their conscience, which was a �God awareness� that was with them, --- even as it has been with mankind ever since.

From the time of Abraham for the next approximately 2000 years, men were �saved� by Faith in God, worshiping Him, and being obedient to the Law (that came at different times to Abraham, but mainly through Moses.)

--- However, in these 4000 years, including the time of Noah, --- the people that were righteous, were not taken to heaven, but remained in �death.�
Sad as it may have seemed, Satan had succeeded in spoiling God�s plan, so the dead all had to wait for a 'resurrection,' even as we believe will happen at the end of the Age.

This is interesting to think about in the Book of Daniel 12:
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

(Enough for now)


Placid

Assalm Alaik Placid,

Placid wrote: Even though Webber and I have said we are not trinitarians... you seem to...

Placid, did I direct my initial post to you and Webber? No. Then why are you saying this? My initial post was for Caringheart, a trinitarian. I hope this is clear.

Placid wrote: ...you seem to enjoy using that misinformation in your posts...

Placid, you have accused me, you said that I "enjoy using that misinformation". You've made an allegation about me even though you have nothing to prove it. You simply decided to throw that in. So you know, I'm not a person that enjoys using misinformation. I wouldn't use misinformation, period. You say many things that I don't agree with, but I don't claim that you "enjoy using misinformation".

Placid wrote: ...which doesn�t allow you to think any other way.

What is it that doesn�t allow me to think any other way? The misinformation? And what is the way I should be thinking? Your way?

Placid wrote: In saying �The message was always the same, to worship God,� --- this verifies that the former prophets had the same message as Muhammad brought, and so for those who believed and worshipped God, even before Jesus came, God must have had a plan of salvation for them, as well, don�t you think?

That is what I'm saying. And since you claimed in another thread that you believe that the Quran is sent to Mohammad (pbuh) from God (saw) through Gabriel (as), therefore the Quran is the final revelation from God. Then what's stopping you from following the final revelation and declaring that "Mohammad is the final messenger from God"?

Placid wrote: When you say �Muhammad had received the final message for all mankind.� --- How was it different than the message that you say �was the same message for all the prophets?�

The core of the message was always the same, to worship Allah and non other. That is the fundamental part of the message. The differences were in the examples and the lessons that were passed with every messenger, and was relayed through the experiences, trials and tribulations that the prophets had to endure for us to learn from. The final message in the Quran isn't only from the time of Mohammad (pbuh), it's an account of all the prophets and messengers, starting from Adam (as). It's a blessing from our Creator. There was always one message, that Allah is One and not to worship anything other than Him (subhanaho wa ta'ala).

We relate to you, [O Muhammad], the best of stories in what We have revealed to you of this Qur'an although you were, before it, among the unaware. (3)

That is why prophets are given high status. They were chosen to take part in this message and they did so by going through hardship, suffering, trails, tribulations... That is what they did for the sake of Allah (subhanaho wa ta'la). And with the wisdom and blessings of Allah, they left knowledge for us to learn from.

Placid wrote: Did Muhammad introduce any new laws in the Quran that we should know about?

Yes, stop eating pig.


Edited by Rational - 02 March 2013 at 3:03pm

Rational wrote: Placid wrote: Did Muhammad introduce any new laws in the Quran that we should know about? Yes, stop eating pig.

Greetings Rational,

That's actually not new... it's old... from the Torah. 

Salaam,
Caringheart