Question for Muslims on this Forum

Greetings Caringheart,

'These are not the only sources where I get information. I read and listen to an awful lot from muslims themselves and weigh it all in the balance. These were simply two sources I wanted to ask how you refute what they say since this is the information that is out there. I thought you were interested in helping me. Now you show me in this public forum a different face... that you are angered by my questions. You never said so to me. I thought you were willing to address these things with me. Now I know why our conversations came to an end. I thought you were simply busy.'

'"I checked the youtube discussion talking about the jihad verse in chapter 9. I posted a response regarding the very issue - and what did you say? Did you try to read all of it, understand what was being said there or accept the analysis of the verse, no."
Can you refresh my memory, which youtube and which response? Yes I have always read and considered carefully all your responses to me. Some were exceedingly encouraging, and I was pretty sure I shared this fact.'

You are saying in your first statement that you had two sources - one of these was a youtube panel discussion. I listened to the first 30 minutes. It was talking about Jihad, the verse 9:5 in the quran, and how to deal with abrogation in the Quran.

I posted a a response to this in 'Islam for non-muslims'
I did not have this information - rather I searched the sources I trust and rely on, digged it out and posted it on the forum. Agreeed I did not address it directly to you, because I thought it is a general concern topic and should be presented to everyone :
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24604

YOur comment on Jan 11 2013:
'Islam is so complex, and confusing, and confused that it seems no one can figure it out the same way twice... and yet I have heard people talk of 'the simplicity of Islam'. I don't get it. To me there is nothing simple about it at all, in fact it is major confusion and open to much interpretation.'

If you please check the first 35 mins of the video, then re-read the 4 posts i have made and then re assess your comment, you will know what I am talking.

I was not angry at this video, nor did I ignore your concern. I posted something which answers exactly how one would refute such a claim. But after your comment, I did not go back to it, because it had robbed me off all energy for it.

Your second source I checked in a rush the first day. The second day when i looked carefully there were blasphemous remarks about the prophet of Islam in the opening lines. I said ideally I do not comment on this sort of thing - this IS my answer to your question about how I would refute it - I would simply not make any comment. However, since I was trying to help diffuse some of the tension between you and other muslims, I did make a cursory comment - I made an exception to my own rules. I was still not angry. But your response on Jan 8th, I felt pushed into further comments, I could not handle my own reaction, so I decided to step back a while.
However, I still did not want to do injustice to you, so, I kept talking to you on the forum about other issues which were not related to that website. Perhaps this you call a fake thing, because if I was angry with you about one thing, it should reflect in every other discussion I have with you ?
Our discussions on PM have ended, because I need to handle my anger. If I said anything to you it would only have made things worse.
Even in my response to AbuLoren I did not point a direct finger at you - rather mentioned it in anonimity, and said my anger at blasphemy is my personal problem.

'You(not you personally, but all those who do this) label these challenges to the faith anti-islamic because that is a convenient label. It saves from having to address real issues. I could label everything islamic as anti-everything else, but this gets us nowhere. What we need to address is why these things are being said. Change my mind if you can. I need to know that I can live in peace and equality with my fellow humans beings, even with islam in the world.'

Blasphemy is not an intellectual challenge Caingheart, it is simply ignorance and bad manners. And such bad manners are not seen anywhere except on anti-islamic websites.
There are no real issues in there - they are attacking our faith and our prophet. When there are real issue there always are ways of decorum to present them!!

Can you live in peace with Isalm in the world - well its upto you. Can you show respect to muslims and their prophet? Can you refrain from slandering him? Or you think your right to free speech allows you to slander anybody's honor?
Just the other day I saw a documentary on youtube- called The Rushdie Affair.
If you can find it, just check it out. Khushwant Singh, who is an atheist, says in that video he advised against the publication of Satanic Verses in India - because he was concerned about the sentiments of muslims in India. He said any group of people who hold someone in such high regard - it is not wise to challenge those sentiments. That book or the cartoons, or the movie - these are mischiefs. I cannot control the reaction of every muslim on it. I can teach my children and a handful of people I can have influence on. So I dont know how safe the world is when people insist on doing such kind of mischief, while responsible personales do not want to police them.

'We are not 'telling' anyone what the qur'an says, we are asking how it says something different to you. We are telling you that we can not understand how you do not see the same thing that we see, but if we can be assured that muslims will not act on the scriptures in the way we see them as intending for you to act, then all will be well.'

For example when you see the Quran as setting two groups of people against each other you did not ask how we see these verses. You simple said why the quran is setting two groups of people against each other. You've seen the whole confusion on that thread yourself.
When you are asking why the quran is saying something, basically you are saying that the quran is saying it and you want to know why, rather than asking if it is really saying what you think it is. Basically if muslims are not reading the verses as you think they are then the whole issue is a false premise.

'It is confusing because we can never be sure exactly what it is that your scriptures do say. There are many ways of interpreting and practicing... and there's that ever present issue of allah allowing deception or taqiya. How can anyone ever trust a muslim given that precept? '

There are only few verses in the quran that have sharia rulings in them. Many of these concern the muslims only. Regarding dealing with non-muslims if you misinterpret them and teach afghan children about jihad for 20 years, it may happen that one day an OBL is born who uses them against the very people who used the misinterpretation as a weapon for their enemy ... Do you see my point? Making the world safe for terrorism - did you read that article?

Taqayyiah, am still waiting for the references.
How do you know Ayesha (radiallahuanha) was 9 years old when she married the prophet? Is it thru islamic sources of non-islamic? There is information in our sources that is used by enemies of islam to discredit us and attack us, still our scholars did not hide those - and we are dishonest, untrustworthy people!


Edited by Nausheen - 05 February 2013 at 5:34am

Greetings Abu_Loren,

I've never asked for, or looked for debate, just conversation.

Salaam,
Caringheart

Greetings Nausheen,

These are not the only sources where I get information.  I read and listen to an awful lot from muslims themselves and weigh it all in the balance.
These were simply two sources I wanted to ask how you refute what they say since this is the information that is out there.  I thought you were interested in helping me.  Now you show me in this public forum a different face... that you are angered by my questions.  You never said so to me.  I thought you were willing to address these things with me.  Now I know why our conversations came to an end.  I thought you were simply busy.
You(not you personally, but all those who do this) label these challenges to the faith anti-islamic because that is a convenient label.  It saves from having to address real issues.  I could label everything islamic as anti-everything else, but this gets us nowhere.  What we need to address is why these things are being said.  Change my mind if you can.  I need to know that I can live in peace and equality with my fellow humans beings, even with islam in the world.

"I checked the youtube discussion talking about the jihad verse in chapter 9. I posted a response regarding the very issue - and what did you say? Did you try to read all of it, understand what was being said there or accept the analysis of the verse, no."

Can you refresh my memory, which youtube and which response?  Yes I have always read and considered carefully all your responses to me.  Some were exceedingly encouraging, and I was pretty sure I shared this fact.

"But I am not disappointed, because from that episode I learned what the non-muslims are worried about in Islam, and I also learned the truth behind a matter that I might have otherwise not looked into so carefully."

This is good, because this is the reason I wished for you to watch... to understand how it is on the other side of things.   Then we become better equipped to understand and trust one another.  Your most recent responses gave me reason to doubt the trust I had been placing in you and in our discussions.  It made me doubt your sincerity.

"But non-muslims read a translation then start 'telling us' what it is saying."

We are not 'telling' anyone what the qur'an says, we are asking how it says something different to you.  We are telling you that we can not understand how you do not see the same thing that we see, but if we can be assured that muslims will not act on the scriptures in the way we see them as intending for you to act, then all will be well.
It is confusing because we can never be sure exactly what it is that your scriptures do say.  There are many ways of interpreting and practicing... and there's that ever present issue of allah allowing deception or taqiya.  How can anyone ever trust a muslim given that precept?  These are the things we need to see addressed.  This is not anti-islamic, these are real concerns, as they would be for you too if you saw these things in the scriptures of others towards yourselves.

"My response to Abu Loren is that I have not given up on anyone and advise others the same, because the false information which is perhaps used as your homework before having a real dialogue with muslims should be assessed and argued. "

Thank you, and this is what I hope for, that the information be assessed, and only then, addressed.

"Yes Caringheart, 'if' I present a false face I lose the purpose of discussion with you. "

  Good because until now you have given hope.

Salaam,
Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 04 February 2013 at 1:08pm

Greetings CaringHeart,

Would you please clarify what is shocking to you about my response. Is it the fact that I think your source of info is purely anti-islamic websites, or my entire post?

Also, I dont understand what you mean by a false face. Ive always spoken to you with honesty, then why do you think I carry a false face?

thank you.