The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is

nospam001 wrote: I presume Rational is not serious when he equates people to lifeless plasticine figures in a child's game. Judging from the lack of any serious response, I have to conclude that my questions have been overtaken by other topics, or simply misunderstood. It's not as though there is anything new or unfamiliar about their source, so it follows that a relevant tafsir must exist, somewhere out there.

Assalamo alaikom, goday mate :)

nospam001 wrote: I presume Rational is not serious when he equates people to lifeless plasticine figures in a child's game.

I am serious when I use plasticine figures in place of people. I identify both as being a creation. They are both created and owned by a creator. It's irrelevant what attributes or qualities they have. Let's assume that the figures had immortal souls. Would this reduce the authority that their creator has over them? No, because he gave them those immortal souls. They exist because of him. He owns them. They don't own themselves. If they did, they would have control over the beginning and end of their existence. So whether they have immortal souls or not, this doesn't influence the ownership of the creator over their destiny.

I think it also takes faith to accept that "Allah is just". This is why it's easy for me, a believer, to decide on this issue. Because I submit to His will. I therefore obey and accept His will, whatever it may be, regardless of what I think. Because I recognise Him to be the Creator, the Sustainer, the Judge, the Arbitrator, the Wise, the Utterly Just. And so I wouldn't dare question Him on "whether the punishment fits the crime". On the other hand, a non believer doesn't submit to Him and so finds it wrong, or not just.

God instructed Ibraheem (as) to sacrifice his son. Was this just? Ibraheem was confused, nevertheless he was willing to obey because he submits to the will of God. And just before he carried out this task, he heard a voice telling him not to worry, and that he had passed a difficult test. God teaches us a lesson that He (subhanaho wa ta'ala) has complete authority over us, regardless of what we think.

nospam001 wrote: Allah's justice is intrinsically different from human justice...It is meaningless to ask whether He is just, because His judgement is what justice is. - Sheikh Nuh Keller, 2008 Suffering and Divine Wisdom

That's exactly how I feel. It's what I'm trying to say in a nutshell. Thanks for sharing the link.

Caringheart wrote: I think Muhammad misunderstood the scriptures

Mohammad (pbuh) has 1.57 billion followers and increasing.

How many do you have?


Edited by Rational - 07 February 2013 at 11:26am

Rational wrote: nospam001 wrote: Allah's justice is intrinsically different from human justice...It is meaningless to ask whether He is just, because His judgement is what justice is. - Sheikh Nuh Keller, 2008 Suffering and Divine Wisdom That's exactly how I feel. It's what I'm trying to say in a nutshell. Thanks for sharing the link.

 I accept that for Muslims the comforting notion of human justice is totally meaningless in this special context. Do you think maybe something has been lost in translation? In the Arabic text, was there a different word for Allah(), one which always gets mistranslated into English as plain old "just"?