The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is

Rational wrote: Maybe you acknowledge that but I don't because I believe He exists and so He can do whatever He wants with His creation. So what do you believe then?

I believe that a God who chooses to handicap people and then punishes them for being handicapped must have a different set of values from those normally ascribed to Him.

Rational wrote: In general, What are your thoughts on how everything came to being? Are you more Creation or more Evolution. I just want to know how an Agnostic thinks.

"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do sir?" (attributed to John Maynard Keynes).

There's a good intro on Wikipedia. For me personally, I'd rate myself about a 5 on Dawkins' 7-point scale. More evolution than Creation but, like Keynes and J B S Haldane, my views could change tomorrow.

Now, if we could get back to the 'apparent injustice' thing...

Rational wrote: Maybe you acknowledge that but I don't because I believe He exists and so He can do whatever He wants with His creation.

I now see what you mean. (I think.) Supposing the word 'justice' is defined to include 'any act or omission of God', then any 'apparent injustice' would instantly disappear in a puff of semantics.

While we're at it, other familiar-sounding words like 'consistent', 'truthful', 'forgiving' and 'caring' may be said to apply to God by definition, regardless of His choices.

A sentence such as "God is just" may sound comforting to the proles but conveys no actual information, once you've read the disclaimer. Brilliant!

nospam001 wrote: I'd rate myself about a 5 on Dawkins' 7-point scale. More evolution than Creation

So currently you think it's more plausible that everything was created by chance, bish bash bosh and we have everything. Ok.

nospam001 wrote: Now, if we could get back to the 'apparent injustice' thing...

I have an example. Tell me what you think. A child is given some plasticine and begins to create several figures. He decided that a couple of them are not to his liking and so chooses to put them into the recycling bin. Is this 'apparent injustice' to those unfortunate figures? He owns them and created them so it's his business what he does with them and no one has the right to tell him anything. If anyone shares their opinion with him by saying he is unfair, it's not incumbent upon him to answer.

What do you think?

nospam001 wrote: Rational wrote: I have an example. Tell me what you think. A child is given some plasticine and begins to create several figures. He decided that a couple of them are not to his liking and so chooses to put them into the recycling bin. Is this 'apparent injustice' to those unfortunate figures? He owns them and created them so it's his business what he does with them and no one has the right to tell him anything. If anyone shares their opinion with him by saying he is unfair, it's not incumbent upon him to answer. I appreciate your choice of analogy. Before I can respond, however, there are some details that need to be clarified. 1  Did the child damage some of the plasticine figures? 2. If yes, was it on purpose, just so they would be 'not to his liking'? 3. Does each plasticine figure also have an immortal soul? 4. Will there be eternal suffering for the 'recycled' figures? 5. Is the child fully aware of all these facts? 6. Does he generally appear to know right from wrong? What I think depends very much on these details. [EDIT: Before today, I was able to post directly to this thread. Alas, not any more. How about you?]