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The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is

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nospam001 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nospam001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2013 at 12:36am

"Does the Trinity make sense, or is it just polytheism in disguise?"

"Did Jesus ever actually say it's OK to eat pigs?"

"Was he crucified, or beamed up at the last minute?"

Are these topics a fair cross-section of what gets everyone fired up in interfaith forums? Do they help convince anyone who isn't already convinced? Where might I find a less dogmatic (and therefore more persuasive) presentation of the case for God/Allah?

God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robin Hood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 January 2013 at 6:38pm
It seems some Muslims don�t know that the Qur�an talks a lot about intellect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nospam001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 January 2013 at 12:52am

Originally posted by Rational Rational wrote:

It's not for us to ask him anything. The plasticine is his and so he can do whatever he wishes with it. He can choose to give whatever purpose to a figure. He can choose to have a figure with no purpose at all. He can choose to make a figure with no arms infinitly or temporarily. He can then choose to give the same figure arms and wings. The plasticine is his, he's the one working with it, he knows the purpose, we can only claim and assume we know. He qualifies to dictate over the plasticine in any way he chooses.
I agree that it would be absurd for me to ask our hypothetical protagonist to explain himself, given that you are the sole author of - and authority on - this thought experiment. And yes, people do act arbitrarily and without reason, sometimes with a lack of empathy that can be truly chilling. Especially young children.

By substituting lifeless objects in place of sentient beings you seem to imply that questions 3 & 4 above are both irrelevant. To me, they make a huge difference.

Maybe it is naive for me to think that 'justice' has something to do with whether the punishment fits the crime.  I am guessing that many readers would agree with you that - just as we see in the grubby world of realpolitik -  it's really all about who is in charge, and who doles out the punishment. As long as they're one and the the same, then my notion of 'justice' is rendered totally meaningless or, at best, an airy-fairy construct for philosophers and dreamers.

God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rational Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 January 2013 at 4:55am
Originally posted by nospam001 nospam001 wrote:

I appreciate your choice of analogy. Before I can respond, however, there are some details that need to be clarified.

1  Did the child damage some of the plasticine figures?
2. If yes, was it on purpose, just so they would be 'not to his liking'?
3. Does each plasticine figure also have an immortal soul?
4. Will there be eternal suffering for the 'recycled' figures?
5. Is the child fully aware of all these facts?
6. Does he generally appear to know right from wrong?

What I think depends very much on these details.

[EDIT: Before today, I was able to post directly to this thread. Alas, not any more. How about you?]

It's not for us to ask him anything. The plasticine is his and so he can do whatever he wishes with it. He can choose to give whatever purpose to a figure. He can choose to have a figure with no purpose at all. He can choose to make a figure with no arms infinitly or temporarily. He can then choose to give the same figure arms and wings. The plasticine is his, he's the one working with it, he knows the purpose, we can only claim and assume we know. He qualifies to dictate over the plasticine in any way he chooses.

Do you disagree?

[I can post directly]


Edited by Rational - 24 January 2013 at 6:14am
الله
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nospam001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 January 2013 at 12:00am
Originally posted by Abu Loren Abu Loren wrote:

They've probably taken away your privilege because you are a waste of space and a duck.
Ah... I always wondered why my feet looked like that. Pinch
God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Abu Loren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2013 at 6:49pm
Originally posted by nospam001 nospam001 wrote:

Originally posted by Rational Rational wrote:

I have an example. Tell me what you think. A child is given some plasticine and begins to create several figures. He decided that a couple of them are not to his liking and so chooses to put them into the recycling bin. Is this 'apparent injustice' to those unfortunate figures? He owns them and created them so it's his business what he does with them and no one has the right to tell him anything. If anyone shares their opinion with him by saying he is unfair, it's not incumbent upon him to answer.
I appreciate your choice of analogy. Before I can respond, however, there are some details that need to be clarified.

1  Did the child damage some of the plasticine figures?
2. If yes, was it on purpose, just so they would be 'not to his liking'?
3. Does each plasticine figure also have an immortal soul?
4. Will there be eternal suffering for the 'recycled' figures?
5. Is the child fully aware of all these facts?
6. Does he generally appear to know right from wrong?

What I think depends very much on these details.

[EDIT: Before today, I was able to post directly to this thread. Alas, not any more. How about you?]
 
They've probably taken away your privilege because you are a waste of space and a duck.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nospam001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2013 at 1:51pm

Originally posted by Rational Rational wrote:

I have an example. Tell me what you think. A child is given some plasticine and begins to create several figures. He decided that a couple of them are not to his liking and so chooses to put them into the recycling bin. Is this 'apparent injustice' to those unfortunate figures? He owns them and created them so it's his business what he does with them and no one has the right to tell him anything. If anyone shares their opinion with him by saying he is unfair, it's not incumbent upon him to answer.
I appreciate your choice of analogy. Before I can respond, however, there are some details that need to be clarified.

1  Did the child damage some of the plasticine figures?
2. If yes, was it on purpose, just so they would be 'not to his liking'?
3. Does each plasticine figure also have an immortal soul?
4. Will there be eternal suffering for the 'recycled' figures?
5. Is the child fully aware of all these facts?
6. Does he generally appear to know right from wrong?

What I think depends very much on these details.

[EDIT: Before today, I was able to post directly to this thread. Alas, not any more. How about you?]


Edited by nospam001 - 22 January 2013 at 11:16pm
God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
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Rational View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rational Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2013 at 10:02am
Originally posted by nospam001 nospam001 wrote:

I'd rate myself about a 5 on Dawkins' 7-point scale. More evolution than Creation

So currently you think it's more plausible that everything was created by chance, bish bash bosh and we have everything. Ok.

Originally posted by nospam001 nospam001 wrote:

Now, if we could get back to the 'apparent injustice' thing...

I have an example. Tell me what you think. A child is given some plasticine and begins to create several figures. He decided that a couple of them are not to his liking and so chooses to put them into the recycling bin. Is this 'apparent injustice' to those unfortunate figures? He owns them and created them so it's his business what he does with them and no one has the right to tell him anything. If anyone shares their opinion with him by saying he is unfair, it's not incumbent upon him to answer.

What do you think?
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