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The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is
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Abu Loren View Drop Down
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Points: 1646 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Abu Loren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2013 at 4:42am
Originally posted by nospam001 nospam001 wrote:

Originally posted by Rational Rational wrote:

In general, What are your thoughts on how everything came to being? Are you more Creation or more Evolution.

I just want to know how an Agnostic thinks.


"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do sir?" (attributed to John Maynard Keynes).

There's a good intro on Wikipedia. For me personally, I'd rate myself about a 5 on Dawkins' 7-point scale. More evolution than Creation but, like Keynes and J B S Haldane, my views could change tomorrow.

Now, if we could get back to the 'apparent injustice' thing...

Originally posted by Rational Rational wrote:

Maybe you acknowledge that but I don't because I believe He exists and so He can do whatever He wants with His creation.

I now see what you mean. (I think.) Supposing the word 'justice' is defined to include 'any act or omission of God', then any 'apparent injustice' would instantly disappear in a puff of semantics.

While we're at it, other familiar-sounding words like 'consistent', 'truthful', 'forgiving' and 'caring' may be said to apply to God by definition, regardless of His choices.

A sentence such as "God is just" may sound comforting to the proles but conveys no actual information, once you've read the disclaimer. Brilliant!

 
Why are you breathing God's precious air? Shouldn't you be grateful to Him?
 
So you think you are born by chance in a universe which came into existance by chance? You sure are taking a big chance.
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nospam001 View Drop Down
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Points: 149 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nospam001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2013 at 2:16pm

Originally posted by Rational Rational wrote:

In general, What are your thoughts on how everything came to being? Are you more Creation or more Evolution.

I just want to know how an Agnostic thinks.


"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do sir?" (attributed to John Maynard Keynes).

There's a good intro on Wikipedia. For me personally, I'd rate myself about a 5 on Dawkins' 7-point scale. More evolution than Creation but, like Keynes and J B S Haldane, my views could change tomorrow.

Now, if we could get back to the 'apparent injustice' thing...

Originally posted by Rational Rational wrote:

Maybe you acknowledge that but I don't because I believe He exists and so He can do whatever He wants with His creation.

I now see what you mean. (I think.) Supposing the word 'justice' is defined to include 'any act or omission of God', then any 'apparent injustice' would instantly disappear in a puff of semantics.

While we're at it, other familiar-sounding words like 'consistent', 'truthful', 'forgiving' and 'caring' may be said to apply to God by definition, regardless of His choices.

A sentence such as "God is just" may sound comforting to the proles but conveys no actual information, once you've read the disclaimer. Brilliant!
God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
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Rational View Drop Down
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Points: 190 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rational Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2013 at 2:24am
Originally posted by nospam001 nospam001 wrote:

I believe that a God who chooses to handicap people and then punishes them for being handicapped must have a different set of values from those normally ascribed to Him.

In general, What are your thoughts on how everything came to being? Are you more Creation or more Evolution.

I just want to know how an Agnostic thinks.


Edited by Rational - 21 January 2013 at 2:46am
الله
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nospam001 View Drop Down
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Points: 149 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nospam001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 January 2013 at 7:26pm

Originally posted by Rational Rational wrote:

Maybe you acknowledge that but I don't because I believe He exists and so He can do whatever He wants with His creation.

So what do you believe then?

I believe that a God who chooses to handicap people and then punishes them for being handicapped must have a different set of values from those normally ascribed to Him.
God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
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Rational View Drop Down
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Points: 190 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rational Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 January 2013 at 6:31pm
Originally posted by nospam001 nospam001 wrote:

Originally posted by Rational Rational wrote:

So if you don't believe that He exists, what do you believe? Do you believe it's more probable that everything evolved?
I gather you acknowledge the apparent injustice, but would rather discuss a different topic right now?


Maybe you acknowledge that but I don't because I believe He exists and so He can do whatever He wants with His creation.

So what do you believe then?
الله
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nospam001 View Drop Down
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Points: 149 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nospam001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 January 2013 at 5:46pm
Originally posted by Rational Rational wrote:

So if you don't believe that He exists, what do you believe? Do you believe it's more probable that everything evolved?
I gather you acknowledge the apparent injustice, but would rather discuss a different topic right now?
God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
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Rational View Drop Down
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Points: 190 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rational Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 January 2013 at 3:13pm
Originally posted by nospam001 nospam001 wrote:

Yes, provided He exists, He can do anything at all. I don't dispute that.

So if you don't believe that He exists, what do you believe? Do you believe it's more probable that everything evolved?

I don't find it boring it's quite entertaining actually Big%20smile


Edited by Rational - 20 January 2013 at 3:19pm
الله
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nospam001 View Drop Down
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Points: 149 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nospam001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 January 2013 at 1:55pm

Originally posted by Rational Rational wrote:

By surrendering, I accept everything in the Quran. He (Almighty) created everything, and so He can do whatever he wishes to it.
Yes, provided He exists, He can do anything at all. I don't dispute that.

And if He places a veil on my heart and then damns me for not believing, that's entirely His choice. Clearly there has to be some kind of cosmic justice in that which, being veiled, I am just too blind to see.

A real 'Catch-22'. Maybe that's why no-one on this forum has actually come forward and said it.

I do keep bringing it up, I know. You could say it's my 'thing'. Sorry if you find it boring.
God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
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