Christians and Jews Will receive a Double Reward

Abu Loren wrote: TG12345 wrote: Abu Loren wrote: TG12345 wrote: Abu Loren wrote: As'alaamu Alaikkum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu   Good news for Christians and Jews.   Abu Burdah bin Abi Musa narrated from his father that the Messenger of Allah said: "Three will receive their reward twice: A slave who fulfills the rights of Allah and the rights of his owners, then he will be given his reward twice. And a man who has a beautiful slave girl, so he teaches her good manners, then he frees her, then he married her seeking the Face of Allah by that; then he will be given his reward twice. And a man who believed in an earlier Book, then another Book came to him and he believed in it; then he will be given his reward twice." Salaam Alaikum. Do you believe this applies to Christians and Jews today, or during Muhammad's time only? Also, what does the term "believe in" the earlier Book and "believe in" another Book mean? I would assume that means reading it and believing in what it says, am I right?   Wa Alaikkum,   This applies to all Jews and Christians who follow the Muhammadan Covenent since Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was chosen as the final messenger to mankind.   No, you are wrong. It means (to my understanding) that if one who is a Jew or a Christian believe that the Torah was given to Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) and the Injil was given to Masih Isa (Alayhi Salaam) and followed their example in believing that there is only One God, prayed to this One God and gave charity and fasted, believing in His angels, pre-destination etc and then believing in the final revelation that is the Holy Qur'an.   Further, a Christian who used to believe in the Trinity and prayed to Isa Ibna Maryam (Alayhi Salaam) and abandoned that belief system and embraced Islam (submitted himself wholly to the One God) and believe in what Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) brought.   Ever since the final revelation was given, one must believe in it to achieve salvation. Wa Alaykum salaam, Abu Loren. Thank you for your answer. You said that if a Christian believes the Torah was given to Moses and the Injil was given to Jesus and followed their example by believing there is only one God, prayed to Him, have charity and fasted and believed in His angels, predestination and then believed in the Quran, he or she will be saved. A problem I see with this statement is that aside from the Quran, to the best of my knowledge there is no evidence or even any claim of the existence of a book that was revealed to Jesus. Christians believe that the story of Jesus is found in the Gospels, which were written by people who God inspired and who knew Him or knew those who knew Him. I am unaware of any Christian group, sect or denomination prior to the coming of Muhammad or today for that matter that believes that a book was revealed to Jesus- orthodox or otherwise. I am unaware of any non-Muslim claims that such a book is or ever was in existence. How could a Christian believe that God sent a book to Jesus prior to him or her believing in the Quran? There is no record outside of the Quran or hadiths of such a book either existing or in anyone believing in the existence of such a book. If I am wrong on that, please show me sources that prove otherwise. Another problem I see is that, according to the translation at least of the hadith that you posted, the word "believed in" is written both in regards to the Quran and the earlier Book. If you are arguing that by "believed in" an earlier book it means only that a person believed it was given to Jesus, then there is no reason to assume "believed in" another book (ie the Quran) would not mean only believing in it was given to Muhammad. However, if I am not mistaken believing in the Quran means following what it says. If we argue that "believed in" means to follow what was in it, that would apply to the Quran well but the problem would be that people in Muhammad's time were following the Injil which a) there is no proof that I am aware of outside the Quran that such a book exists or ever has existed and b) would contradict the claim that many Muslims that Christians are basing their theology on corrupted scriptures. Lastly, you wrote: Further, a Christian who used to believe in the Trinity and prayed to Isa Ibna Maryam (Alayhi Salaam) and abandoned that belief system and embraced Islam (submitted himself wholly to the One God) and believe in what Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) brought. I would fit that category for the underlined part, however the Book that I follow is the Bible and the Gospels in it were not given to Jesus by God but rather are accounts of His teachings and some of the things that He did. This is an interesting discussion. Looking forward to hearing your views on this. Salaam.   Sorry I'm just bored out of my skull with all this dissection. I thought what I've posted was prettey clear.

Salaam Alaikum, Abu Loren.

If you don't want to continue this discussion now or at all, it is your choice. The hadith you quoted raised a lot of questions about Islamic beliefs on Christian scriptures.

I will restate my points for you if you do decide to continue this discussion, and for others who may be reading and may want to jump in.

The hadith claims that people who believed in earlier books and then followed the book sent to them will get a double reward.

This allegedly applies to Christians and Jews who believed in the existence of the Torah and Injil and followed a set of practices (like charity, prayer, etc) and then believed in another book that came to them. This you claim also applies to Christians who believe God is a Trinity.

Here are some of my points.

1) I am unaware of any non-Islamic historical or theological belief in the existence of a book that was revealed to Jesus. I am unaware of any Christian orthodox or heretical groups now or in the past who believed or made any allusion to the existence of such a book. I am unaware of any non-Muslim secular source confirming that such a book ever existed, or that Christians or other non-Muslims at any time in history prior to the coming of Muhammad believed in the existence of such a text. More importantly, I am unaware of any Arabic or other middle-eastern church, denomination or Christian group (heretical or not) prior to the coming of Muhammad that stated or believed that such a book exists.

Yet, according to the hadith, the Christians who believed in the Quran first believed in the Injil. I see absolutely no historical evidence that a book called the "Injil" or a book that was revealed to Jesus by God ever existed or was believed to have existed by non-Muslims.

2) If by "believing in" the earlier book and the book that has now come means simply believing in its existence, then the Christians who became Muslims were not good Muslims since you believe you are instructed to follow what is in the Quran.

3) If, on the other hand, "believing in" the earlier book and the book that has now come means following what is in it, this means that Christians had the Injil with them during the time of Muhammad and the problems with this assertion is that

a) According to what Muslims believe, Christians base their theology on corrupted Scripture, yet this would mean that Christians in Muhammad's time still had the book God allegedly gave to Jesus

and

b) This brings us back to the lack of any non-Islamic historical evidence that a book like the "Injil" exists or ever has existed. One would think that the Christians who followed the Injil and then followed the Quran would preserve and not destroy what God previously gave to them.

Take care.




Edited by TG12345 - 10 January 2013 at 4:02pm

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Salaam Alaikum, 786SalaamKhan.

I see what you mean by Unitarian 'christians' who lived before Muhammad. 

If these 'christians' lived before Muhammad, how could they have had another book (which you believe is the Quran) come to them? Did the Quran come before Muhammad?

PS on an unrelated note, where is this hadith from? Is it from an authentic hadith collection?
[/QUOTE]

Wa Alaikum,

You're just making things complicated, I myself never claimed that the Quran came before Muhammad(PBUH) nor do I know where you got that idea.

Also from before when you said there is no proof outside the Quran about the Gospel given to Jesus(PBUH), the scholars say that the Gospel was most likely divinely inspired rather than written down; makes sense since Gospel means "Good News".

 

TG12345 wrote: 1) I am unaware of any non-Islamic historical or theological belief in the existence of a book that was revealed to Jesus. I am unaware of any Christian orthodox or heretical groups now or in the past who believed or made any allusion to the existence of such a book. I am unaware of any non-Muslim secular source confirming that such a book ever existed, or that Christians or other non-Muslims at any time in history prior to the coming of Muhammad believed in the existence of such a text. More importantly, I am unaware of any Arabic or other middle-eastern church, denomination or Christian group (heretical or not) prior to the coming of Muhammad that stated or believed that such a book exists. Yet, according to the hadith, the Christians who believed in the Quran first believed in the Injil. I see absolutely no historical evidence that a book called the "Injil" or a book that was revealed to Jesus by God ever existed or was believed to have existed by non-Muslims.

Abu Loren wrote: You are confused like the rest of Christendom, which is ok because your way of thinking is, of course, different to a Muslim. First of all, what you have to understand is that some Prophets like Musa, Isa and Muhammad (peace be upon them all) are given revelations and instructions in how to live a holy life according to the Laws of God. These revelations are later written down by the disciples of these Prophets, hence we have the Torah, the Injil and the Holy Qur'an. With regard to the Injil what happened was that the disciples of Isa (Alayhi Salaam) wrote down what was given to him but the Trinitarians only 'selected' what they wanted to use for their Trinitarian purposes. The rest of the books were discarded and lost. So what you have today of the Bible is not the Injil but a selection of work that was chosen specifically for the Trinatarian cause.

Salaam Alaikum, Abu Loren. Thanks for replying. I understand the Muslim belief about the alleged Injil that was revealed to Jesus. Does the Quran teach that the Injil was written down by Jesus' disciples in the form of several 'books', or does it teach it was a book that God revealed to Jesus by God?

The problem with your statement that parts of this book were 'selected' by Trinitarians and other parts lost and discarded, is that the Quran states that those who follow Muhammad, whom they will find mentioned in the Gospel and Torah, will be those who are successful.

7:157

Those who follow the Messenger-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find written down with them in the Taurat and the Injeel (who) enjoins them good and forbids them evil, and makes lawful to them the good things and makes unlawful to them impure things, and removes from them their burden and the shackles which were upon them; so (as for) those who believe in him and honor him and help him, and follow the light which has been sent down with him, these it is that are the successful.

If the Gospel was lost, how could people have found Muhammad mentioned in it and chose to follow him?

It was obviously around in the time of Muhammad, otherwise he would have not praised Christians who 'found' him in it!

TG12345 wrote: 2) If by "believing in" the earlier book and the book that has now come means simply believing in its existence, then the Christians who became Muslims were not good Muslims since you believe you are instructed to follow what is in the Quran.

Abu Loren wrote: What the Christians believen in was the corrupted version of the message that Isa (Alayhi Salaam) gave. So they must abondon that and accept the final revelation given to Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam).

Let's look at the hadith again.

"Three will receive their reward twice: A slave who fulfills the rights of Allah and the rights of his owners, then he will be given his reward twice. And a man who has a beautiful slave girl, so he teaches her good manners, then he frees her, then he married her seeking the Face of Allah by that; then he will be given his reward twice. And a man who believed in an earlier Book, then another Book came to him and he believed in it; then he will be given his reward twice."

Are you saying that 'an earlier Book' is a reference to a corrupted version of the Gospel? Where does the hadith say this?

7:157 says "the Injeel".

TG12345 wrote: 3) If, on the other hand, "believing in" the earlier book and the book that has now come means following what is in it, this means that Christians had the Injil with them during the time of Muhammad and the problems with this assertion is that

Abu Loren wrote: Wrong. The Gospels and the epistles are not the Injil. TG12345 wrote: The problem is that 7:157 disagrees with you. Muhammad believed that Christians during his time had the Gospel with them, and were praised for following him after allegedly finding him mentioned therein. TG12345 wrote: a) According to what Muslims believe, Christians base their theology on corrupted Scripture, yet this would mean that Christians in Muhammad's time still had the book God allegedly gave to Jesus Abu Loren wrote: Wrong. Christians only had had the corrupted Bible. That would imply that the Injil that God gave to Jesus is a "corrupted" book, since Christians still had it at the time of Muhammad and were told he was mentioned in it. BTW where is Muhammad 'written down' in Christian scriptures?   TG12345 wrote: and b) This brings us back to the lack of any non-Islamic historical evidence that a book like the "Injil" exists or ever has existed. One would think that the Christians who followed the Injil and then followed the Quran would preserve and not destroy what God previously gave to them. Take care.   [QUOTE=Abu Loren]The Injil does not exist. See the thread 'Where is the Injil?". If the Injil does not exist, then the author of the Quran was asking people to refer to an imaginary book or books.   [QUOTE=Abu Loren]You are one confused individual me thinks.

I think you are the one who is confused. I can't say I blame you. Islamic teachings on the "Injil" are contradictory.

On one hand, this was a book allegedly given by God to Jesus, and written down by his disciples, which was corrupted and lost. On the other hand, Christians during Muhammad's time were told to look in it to find Muhammad's traits mentioned therein so they could follow.

TG12345 wrote: TG12345 wrote: You wrote: There are also verses similar to this in the Quran but it only applies to the (Unitarian)Christians before Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) and the Jews before Prophets Zechariah, John and Jesus(PBUT). If the following hadith (which we were discussing) Abu Burdah bin Abi Musa narrated from his father that the Messenger of Allah said: "Three will receive their reward twice: A slave who fulfills the rights of Allah and the rights of his owners, then he will be given his reward twice. And a man who has a beautiful slave girl, so he teaches her good manners, then he frees her, then he married her seeking the Face of Allah by that; then he will be given his reward twice. And a man who believed in an earlier Book, then another Book came to him and he believed in it; then he will be given his reward twice." applies to only Unitarian Christians before Muhammad, and another Book is a reference to the Quran, you are saying that the Quran came to Unitarian Christians who lived before Muhammad. I actually wrote: How could a Christian believe that God sent a book to Jesus prior to him or her believing in the Quran? There is no record outside of the Quran or hadiths of such a book either existing or in anyone believing in the existence of such a book. If I am wrong on that, please show me sources that prove otherwise. Who are the scholars who claim the Injil existed? On what basis do they make this claim? 19:30 says that the Gospel was a "Scripture" revealed to Jesus by God. [Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah . He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet. If you examine the website "Corpus Quran", you will see that the word for Scripture is "l-kitaba" http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=%2819:30:6%29 The same word is used for the Torah in 23:49. http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=%2823:49:4%29 I am no expert in Arabic, so if this site is providing bad translations please let me know, I am going based on what it says. If it is correct, the same word that is used for "Scripture" regarding the "Injil" is used regarding the Torah, which Muslims if I am not mistaken do believe is a real book (which was also allegedly corrupted). Allahu Akhbar.

Oh so you thought that when I said only Unitarian Christians I meant in relation to the Hadith. Sorry, I meant that the Quranic verses alone apply to them. Notice how I said "Similar verses" and then "but".

Muslim scholars conclude that the Injeel was most likely inspired. Also it gets tedious when both Christians and Muslims cherry pick verses from both the Quran and Bible to prove a point without looking at the context or reading beyond the text.
You should know from the lives of the Prophets Muhammad(PBUH) and Moses(PBUH) that the words "scripture" and "book" aren't literal since Prophet Moses and Prophet Muhammad didn't actually receive the Torah and Quran in written form rather the words were divinely inspired.
Prophet Jesus (PBUH) received the message and taught it to others who may or may not have written it down. If you still aren't convinced here is a text which dates before the four canonical Gospel and Paul's Writings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XllGiKmb_e0
 
If you still not convinced check Quran 3:7 which says that verses are clear whilst others are allegories.


Edited by 786SalamKhan - 13 January 2013 at 12:03am