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27 People Dead, Mostly Children
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nospam001 View Drop Down
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Points: 149 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nospam001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 12:35am

Originally posted by Nausheen Nausheen wrote:

Surah Waqiyah says that the 'entry tickets' are given to a large number of the former people, and a few of later times

Billions more devout Muslims have lived and died since Mohammad's time, compared to the entire history of humanity up to that point - especially if you accept the genealogy of Abrahamic scripture. The chances of a given Muslim earning a valid 'entry ticket' these days must be tiny in percentage terms. Is that because the 'average believer' was somehow 'more deserving' back then? Or have the entry criteria become more exclusive? How might that be interpreted as fair? What purposes could it serve?

For me, the incentives that work best are usually the ones that are not so far out of reach.
God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
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Friendship View Drop Down
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Points: 884 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Friendship Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 1:49am
Assalamu alaika Nospam001

You are an Agnostic and you are arguing in the manner I argue with the followers of Muhammad.
The point is, when one says something and the other refers to that from a certain source of certainty unaffected by time and relativity, and asserts that as part of his faith, why should we then be disagreeing with one  another? You have no source, while my source is the Old Testament confirmed by the Qur'an. Do you know about the Levi tribes and the Standard Allah set in disciplining the then Children of Israel? Why did Allah punish Achan? Is peace not then common to all revelations?
The common belief of the followers of Muhammad is they will disobey him and enter Paradise. They never like to be corrected.

Friendship.
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Caringheart View Drop Down
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Points: 2991 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caringheart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 11:14am
Originally posted by nospam001 nospam001 wrote:

My copies of the Bible and the Qur'an are both overflowing with vivid descriptions of heaven and hell, pleasure and pain, angels and demons.  It seems that only an elite few are able to see beyond all those blatant appeals to self-interest. Is God seeking to limit the number of valid 'entry tickets'? Why?


Greetings nospam001,

The way to God is a narrow road...
Why?
Because to be with God in paradise we must first be purified...
refined in the fire.  Nothing impure can reside in the presence of God who is pure.
It takes much to purge the dross and reveal the gold.
How much ore must go into the fire to produce one ounce of gold?
The trouble is not that God is limiting us but rather we limit ourselves... deceived and distracted by the devil's tactics... the things of this world... the things of the flesh.
The trouble is that among the masses there are only a few who choose to seek God... God first, and God above all else.  There are only a few who are able to put on the blinders and ignore the distractions, to put self aside... to not be misled.

Salaam,
CH

Interesting name by the way... I only got it as I sounded it out as I typed just now. LOL
____________________________________

wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.  (the words of Jesus in the Gospel)




Edited by Caringheart - 18 December 2012 at 11:22am
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Friendship View Drop Down
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Points: 884 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Friendship Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 1:15pm
Assalamu alaikum.

The problem of man is he is ungrateful in many ways to the Mercy and Forgiveness of Allah.
Many of us disregard the Old Testament while according to my research it is the backbone of understanding the Nature of the G-d (the Allah) of Abraham. There is every lesson in each chapter and subsection from the Book of genesis to Exodus. The Book of Numbers, Levictus, Deuteronomy are extracts and further explanations of the Book of Exodus.
Let us for example reflect on the lessons between Abimelech and Abraham in establishing a promise on loyalty and a peace treaty. The number 7 after the peace treaty is significant to the Muslims.
Imagine Allah telling us that he counted the number of times Pharaoh refused to be guided by His signs. Imagine the quails, cloud and dew given to the Children of Israel immediately after the crossing of the Red sea!
There are abundant lessons pointing to the Mercy of Allah but we dislike and disbelieve in them. The He tells us that he does not forgive when He is disobeyed intentionally.
So what else is mankind looking from Allah? It is not that Allah is seeking to limit the number of valid entry tickets but like an aircraft in the sky, he is guided by his flight plan. This is applicable in all our walks of life. 

Friendship
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nospam001 View Drop Down
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Points: 149 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nospam001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by Caringheart Caringheart wrote:

...deceived and distracted by the devil's tactics...There are only a few who are able to put on the blinders and ignore the distractions, to put self aside... to not be misled.
Given that Abrahamic scripture does present many 'vivid descriptions of heaven and hell' (and I doubt anyone would pretend otherwise), surely these verses are meant to appeal to our most selfish motives, namely the desire for pleasure and fear of pain. It seems the author/s were willing to adopt 'the devil's tactics', albeit for a good cause.
Quote Interesting name by the way... I only got it as I sounded it out as I typed just now.
I just recycled part of an old email address, not thinking ahead. Now i'm stuck with it.Unhappy
God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
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Caringheart View Drop Down
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Points: 2991 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caringheart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2012 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by nospam001 nospam001 wrote:

Given that Abrahamic scripture does present many 'vivid descriptions of heaven and hell' (and I doubt anyone would pretend otherwise), surely these verses are meant to appeal to our most selfish motives, namely the desire for pleasure and fear of pain. It seems the author/s were willing to adopt 'the devil's tactics', albeit for a good cause.


Hi nospam001,

Without taking alot of time to delve into it...
this is why I am always saying that I follow the new testament... the new covenant scriptures and not the old.  God tells us in the scriptures that He 'will do a new thing' and this new thing is, He sends to us Jesus, to lead us to Him through Love.  I do not believe Jesus preached to a selfish nature.  Jesus was disturbed with His disciples when He found them arguing over who would have the best position in heaven.  They were missing the whole point of His message.

CH

I still like the name... makes me laugh now when I type it.  Big%20smile


Edited by Caringheart - 18 December 2012 at 4:49pm
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nospam001 View Drop Down
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Points: 149 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nospam001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 December 2012 at 12:48am

Originally posted by Friendship Friendship wrote:

why should we then be disagreeing with one  another?
I'm not sure that we are, at least not in this thread.

I used the word 'tiny' in a relative sense. My main point is that  the estimated likelihood of a randomly selected Believer 'earning a ticket to Paradise' has diminished by a lot during the last few millennia. What we cannot measure is whether it's fallen from 50% to 10%, say, or from 5% to 0.00001%.

I'm not an epidemiologist, but the math involved is quite straightforward - enough that the question 'why' immediately springs to mind.

God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
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Friendship View Drop Down
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Points: 884 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Friendship Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 December 2012 at 11:24am
Assalamu alaika Nospam001.

I am an epidemiologist and Muhammad Rasullah has already given the statistics: Out of every 1000 only one will get his ticket to paradise. Do you know the reason? Read ISBN 1468070444.
But we are disagreeing even in this very thread? I referred to Torah, the Islam of Moses while you do not have a base?

Friendship.
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