LET US FULFILL OUR OBLIGATIONS - Event Date: 11 December 2012

Nausheen wrote: Im glad to have provoked your intelligence by my statements. It does not matter how you consider me. However, if you were to let your message across, it does matter how you present it. Are you aiming only the 'intelligent' and 'educated' audience among the muslims when you want to talk to them about progress? If that is the case, Irshad Manji will probably sell. As for the 'intellectually bankrupt' - we see things differently.

I wanted to justify my surprise about your statement 'can't be our teacher because'. That's all. I didn't expect your reply and was surprised. A lot of less educated people also embrace progress as well. And there are well educated people who are against progress and brush their teeth like Prophet Muhammad did, even though modern tooth brushes are better.

Nausheen wrote: I did not say she was wrong. Perhaps I was not very clear - I will not even take the trouble to go out of the way - buy a book by her and read in order to know/learn what muslims should do for progress. The reason is I doubt her mantra to progress because I have qualms about she having best interest of muslims at heart. People like her call muslims backward because they do not condone lesbianism. For our progressivness we do need to condone her personal choices. If people are calling her an outcast or doubting her being a muslim, she has a right to cry out and a right to be heard - because she is a muslim as long as she does not declare herself a disbeliever in faith. As for her judgemments about sharia and quran ...

I am convinced that she has the best interest for all Muslims. Islam has no future in the 21st century when Muslims want to recreate 7th-century Arabia. She refuses to join an army of automatons in the name of Allah. She argues against the inferior treatment of women in Islam, the Jew-bashing that so many Muslims persistently engage in, the continuing scourge of slavery in countries ruled by Islamic regimes, the literalist readings of the Quran, and she aims at rediscovering the lost traditions of critical thinking called Ijtihad.

Nausheen wrote: Im a scientist and I studied secular sciences from non-muslim teachers. I dont call them wrong about their opinion in science because of their faith - since the two are not connected. However, progress for muslims has a subtle connection with ones personal choice that defies the laws of islam. I dont mind dining with Manji because that has nothing to do with her personal choice, but I do mind taking tips for social and personal improvement from her, because I don't see her as a person of sound judgement. She herself is in need of help. Ive read testimonies from ex-homosexuals saying that its possible to fight this urge and start feeling normal. A person of sound judgement acknowledges/understands the need to fight the urges that disobey the laws of God. If they don't they still have a right to exist and a right to talk, but they often lose 'appeal' about social reforms (at least for the intellectually bankrupt).

As a scientist you should know that homosexuality is a normal human condition rooted in the biology of the human brain. But let's not focus on this here, it's a huge topic that would require a new Islamicity thread.

One of the Islamic laws of God is Ijtihad. Muslims who do not engage in critical thinking violate the laws of God. And for some verses in the Qur'an we need a lot of critical thinking, like "God has cursed the Jews, transforming them into apes and swine and those who serve the devil." [Qur'an 5:60]

Nausheen wrote: Slavery was not a muslim tradition. It was there in Arab culture before Islam - it was worth removing thus Islam gives extremely high incentives for removing it. It could not be removed overnight - there were social and economic reasons behind that, thus Islam aimed at removing it gradually. I don't know of slaves in today's times, honestly my general knowledge is poor - would you please enlighten me on this. Thank you.

You are right. It existed before Islam. But in some verses the Qu'ran allows slavery, even sex with female slaves. "Also forbidden are women already married, except slave girls (those whom your right hands possess). Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek them from your property, desiring chastity, not fornication. So with those among them whom you have enjoyed, give them their required due, but if you agree mutually after the requirement has been determined, there is no sin on you." [Qur'an 4:24]. Again, as religions evolve, such practices are no longer seen as appropriate.

Nausheen wrote: 'Discrimination against women?' I dont think my definition of discrimination is same as yours. If you want to discuss this on a separate thread you are most welcome. 'Discrimination against homosexuals' I don't really understand what you mean. You see, I come from India and the word 'discrimination' largely speaks about how the 'shudras' were treated in indian society. They were treated as untouchables etc ... so my understanding could be largely flawed unless you explain further.

"And those wives whose refractoriness you fear, exhort them, and avoid them in beds, and beat them; but if they obey you, seek not a way against them; verily Allah is ever Lofty and Grand." [Qur'an 4:34].

There's also the issue of female witnesses in an Islamic court. Yes, let's have a new thread for this.

Nausheen wrote: Are you saying that islam is not the fastest growing religion 'after' the golden age?

No, it is not. It's a common misconception. In reality Islam is a shrinking religion. Christians leave the church and become atheists. They no longer count as Christians. Muslims cannot leave Islam. When they become atheists they have to keep this a secret. Otherwise they might be killed. Fewer people are new Muslims compared to the rising number of Muslims in name only. In Europe Christianity is shrinking as well. In China it's rising.

Nausheen wrote: What do you mean by 'embrace the secular model'? Are you suggesting we discard the ways of Muhammad (pbuh) and become progressive as the west? In other words you are saying we must leave a portion of Islam to become progressive. We cannot Matt. For a muslim, Islam is not just a way of worship, its a way of life. Those who are grounded in the ways of muhammad (pbuh) = sunnah of muhammad (pbuh) only they have true success. - Now, I know this can turn into a huge debate if your concept of the sunnah is not in line with the real sunnah, and perhaps that is where our real difference lies.

Embracing the secular model means that the laws of a country are made by the people and for the people. And they can be changed by the people. A country gives all people the right to choose their religion, change their religion or choose not to believe in God. Muslims can choose to follow the way of Muhammad as long as the way does not violate any of the country's laws. Wife beating is not allowed. Killing a Muslim who becomes a Christian is not allowed. Violence against gay people is not allowed. Calling Jews apes or swines is not allowed. Marrying more than one wife is not allowed. Cutting off the hands of a thief is not allowed. That's the secular model.

Nausheen wrote: I do think salvation is ONLY thru Islam thus Im going to be a muslim 24/7. I cannot call other religions as equally good enough for delivering me safe in afterlife.

I have no problem with your saying that Islam is the best religion for you. I have a problem with saying that Islam or any other religion is the best religion for all humans. I have a problem with Islam wanting to rule the entire world. I have a problem with any claims of the one and only truth, especially for spiritual matters we can't verify with science or any other objective way. Beliefs are not the same as facts. I have a problem with religion forcing itself on people. I have no problem with multiple co-existing spiritual truths. There is your way. And there is my way. For me Christianity is the best way, but I completely understand that this does not apply to everyone.



Edited by Matt Browne - 16 January 2013 at 7:16am

Friendship, in your view, did Muhammad talk about the people of the book?

Matt Browne wrote: I am very surprised by your statement. I was under the impression that you are a very intelligent and well educated woman, but this post amounts to something like intellectual bankruptcy. Instead of finding valid counterarguments to what Ms. Manji is saying, you declare that she must be wrong, because she's a lesbian. This is like saying that E=m*c^2 cannot be true, because Einstein is a Jew and Jews are not true believers. So I'd like to ask you to reconsider: why do you disagree with the views expressed by Ms. Manji (other than homosexuality of course)? Why do you disagree with her views about the silent Muslim majority? Why can't you consider her contributions to the debates about progress and peace? Because she is a lesbian?

Hello Matt,

Im glad to have provoked your intelligence by my statements.
It does not matter how you consider me. However, if you were to let your message across, it does matter how you present it.
Are you aiming only the 'intelligent' and 'educated' audience among the muslims when you want to talk to them about progress? If that is the case, Irshad Manji will probably sell. As for the 'intellectually bankrupt' - we see things differently.

I did not say she was wrong. Perhaps I was not very clear - I will not even take the trouble to go out of the way - buy a book by her and read in order to know/learn what muslims should do for progress. The reason is I doubt her mantra to progress because I have qualms about she having best interest of muslims at heart. People like her call muslims backward because they do not condone lesbianism.
For our progressivness we do need to condone her personal choices. If people are calling her an outcast or doubting her being a muslim, she has a right to cry out and a right to be heard - because she is a muslim as long as she does not declare herself a disbeliever in faith. As for her judgemments about sharia and quran ...

Im a scientist and I studied secular sciences from non-muslim teachers. I dont call them wrong about their opinion in science because of their faith - since the two are not connected.

However, progress for muslims has a subtle connection with ones personal choice that defies the laws of islam.

I dont mind dining with Manji because that has nothing to do with her personal choice, but I do mind taking tips for social and personal improvement from her, because I don't see her as a person of sound judgement.
She herself is in need of help. Ive read testimonies from ex-homosexuals saying that its possible to fight this urge and start feeling normal.

A person of sound judgement acknowledges/understands the need to fight the urges that disobey the laws of God. If they don't they still have a right to exist and a right to talk, but they often lose 'appeal' about social reforms (at least for the intellectually bankrupt).

Matt Browne wrote: I'm not ignoring Muslim traditions, but I believe in progress. Slavery was part of Muslim tradition. Is this tradition worth keeping? Discrimination against women is part of Sharia traditions? Are these traditions worth keeping? The discrimination against homosexuals is part of Christian and Muslim tradition. Is this tradition worth keeping?

Slavery was not a muslim tradition. It was there in Arab culture before Islam - it was worth removing thus Islam gives extremely high incentives for removing it. It could not be removed overnight - there were social and economic reasons behind that, thus Islam aimed at removing it gradually. I don't know of slaves in today's times, honestly my general knowledge is poor - would you please enlighten me on this. Thank you.

'Discrimination against women?' I dont think my definition of discrimination is same as yours. If you want to discuss this on a separate thread you are most welcome.

'Discrimination against homosexuals' I don't really understand what you mean. You see, I come from India and the word 'discrimination' largely speaks about how the 'shudras' were treated in indian society. They were treated as untouchables etc ... so my understanding could be largely flawed unless you explain further.

Matt Browne wrote: Yes, there was some progress, but it stopped when the Islamic Golden Age ended.

Really? Is this a comment in response 'islam being the fastest growing religion'? Are you saying that islam is not the fastest growing religion 'after' the golden age?

Matt Browne wrote: Mainstream Muslims worldwide should embrace all human rights and the secular model.

What do you mean by 'embrace the secular model'?

Are you suggesting we discard the ways of Muhammad (pbuh) and become progressive as the west?
In other words you are saying we must leave a portion of Islam to become progressive. We cannot Matt. For a muslim, Islam is not just a way of worship, its a way of life. Those who are grounded in the ways of muhammad (pbuh) = sunnah of muhammad (pbuh) only they have true success. - Now, I know this can turn into a huge debate if your concept of the sunnah is not in line with the real sunnah, and perhaps that is where our real difference lies.

Matt Browne wrote: Mainstream Muslims should stop making supremacy claims ('we are the best people, we are better than everyone else').Frequent thoughts of the US being superior to all other countries poisons American brains and damages the relationship between America and the rest of the world.Frequent thoughts of Islam being superior to all other religions

Muslims are not the best people. Like all followers of a religion, muslims make mistakes and fall off the high road which is Islam.
However, I dont know any believer of any faith who would not call their faith as the best, in the sense of it being the most accurate and THE way to salvation.

If I thought salvation could be achieved thru Judaism, christianity, sikhism, hinduism as well as Islam - I would not mind being a Jew on Monday, a christian on tuesday, a sikh on wednesday and so on ...
sorry Matt, but I do think salvation is ONLY thru Islam thus Im going to be a muslim 24/7. I cannot call other religions as equally good enough for delivering me safe in afterlife.


Edited by Nausheen - 19 December 2012 at 7:38pm

Matt Browne wrote: You seem to be promoting a Rasulullah Islam, which is somewhat different from Sunni or Shia Islam. I tried to understand your view, which is available herehttp://epubco.com/samples/978-1-62212-637-8Sample.pdfbut found it very complicated.

Matt,
I'd respond to your post to me in detail when I have more time than right now.
Just wanted to clarify a small issue in your post of Friendship.

RasuluAllah means 'Rasul of Allah' or Messenger of Allah.

It is the title of Muhammad (pbuh). Its not any particular form of Islam.

Peace to you.