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Matt Browne View Drop Down
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    Posted: 30 November 2012 at 5:36am
Good point, Hasan. Muslims born in the US and Christians born in the US can't be denied American citizenship. I was talking about all religious folks rejecting secularism (Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus etc) who have or have held a different citizenship before they came to the US. If they don't support secularism and the American constitution, they should go back to their home country or move to a country which is closest to their non-secular worldview.

I have a big issue with ultra-conservative Christians who feel that feel secularism is a threat to their faith and way of life. I challenge their views like I do challenge views of ultra-conservative Muslims. I think secularism is one of the greatest achievements of humanity since the Stone Age. It is worth defending. Today people take it for granted and we have to remind them what happened to Giordano Bruno.




Edited by Matt Browne - 30 November 2012 at 5:38am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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honeto View Drop Down
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Points: 2487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2012 at 11:15am
Originally posted by Matt Browne Matt Browne wrote:



Originally posted by abuayisha abuayisha wrote:


Originally posted by Matt Browne Matt Browne wrote:

In Germany, German laws supersede Islamic laws, and Muslims who disagree with this should choose to live in a different country.
Originally posted by Nausheen Nausheen wrote:

I agree with you. If muslims cannot freely practice their faith in a nation, they should leave.
Often�times it is merely the interpretation or application�of law where citizens disagree.� I don't think one political party that differs on the spirit or letter of�a given�law would suggest the other party choose to live in a different country.�Why not stay and exercises your rights to redress in the court and through the political process as an option to leaving?� Seems a bit draconian to suggest get out if you disagree.� Disagreements are what make democracies thrive in my estimation.
You seem to have misunderstood. Everyone can disagree with a law as long as he or she still follows it. Muslims are welcome to stay in our countries when they honor this principle. I don't agree with all of our laws. That's why we have political parties and a parliament with the power to change laws.I was talking about the fundamental secular principle that German laws supersede Islamic laws. And Christian laws too. Muslims who reject secularism are a threat to the entire Western world. These Muslims are better off living in theocratic countries. That was my point.



Matt,
your countries, ha.
There are many Christians here in the USA (my country) that feel secularism is a threat to their faith and way of life. Where should they move to sir ??
Hasan
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Matt Browne View Drop Down
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Points: 937 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Browne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2012 at 7:37am
Originally posted by W.S. W.S. wrote:

Abu Loren, you are one entertaining fellow! Matt Browne has had so much patience with you that I'm amazed. I recall you once told him to grow up. Maybe you should consider doing that yourself.


Well, I'm 50 years old and I consider patience and politeness to be virtues.



Edited by Matt Browne - 27 November 2012 at 7:38am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Matt Browne View Drop Down
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Points: 937 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Browne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2012 at 7:33am
Originally posted by Abu Loren Abu Loren wrote:

I've said it before, Matt Browne is a Nazi in disguise. Anyway, why would a German have the English name like Matt Browne?


Calling a German a Nazi is very offending. It's like calling an African-American a nigger.

This is an English forum. People use aliases when they are online. English aliases make a lot of sense.
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Matt Browne View Drop Down
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Points: 937 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Browne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2012 at 7:29am
Originally posted by abuayisha abuayisha wrote:

Originally posted by Matt Browne Matt Browne wrote:

In Germany, German laws supersede Islamic laws, and Muslims who disagree with this should choose to live in a different country.

Originally posted by Nausheen Nausheen wrote:


I agree with you. If muslims cannot freely practice their faith in a nation, they should leave.

Often times it is merely the interpretation or application of law where citizens disagree.  I don't think one political party that differs on the spirit or letter of a given law would suggest the other party choose to live in a different country. Why not stay and exercises your rights to redress in the court and through the political process as an option to leaving?  Seems a bit draconian to suggest get out if you disagree.  Disagreements are what make democracies thrive in my estimation.


You seem to have misunderstood. Everyone can disagree with a law as long as he or she still follows it. Muslims are welcome to stay in our countries when they honor this principle. I don't agree with all of our laws. That's why we have political parties and a parliament with the power to change laws.

I was talking about the fundamental secular principle that German laws supersede Islamic laws. And Christian laws too. Muslims who reject secularism are a threat to the entire Western world. These Muslims are better off living in theocratic countries. That was my point.



Edited by Matt Browne - 27 November 2012 at 7:29am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Matt Browne View Drop Down
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Points: 937 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Browne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2012 at 7:20am
Originally posted by Nausheen Nausheen wrote:

For muslims in general telling them what not to do would mean telling them what islamic law is ... this is where clashes begin.


For Muslims in general, I'm merely sharing my personal views. Everyone is entitled to challenge my views and since 1945 in Germany we consider this to be a fundamental right. My parents raised me in this way. At school our teachers encouraged us to be curious and pose uncomfortable questions. Some of my views that you might disagree with are actually shared by some of the 1.5 billion Muslims. This is reality: Muslims challenge the views of other Muslims and it's a good thing. It should be a normal thing.

Originally posted by Nausheen Nausheen wrote:

What most non-muslims have difficulty understanding is that islam is not just a religion, ie a set of rules on how to worship God. Within itself, it also contains instructions (pertaining to the soul)on spirituality and instructions (pertaining to society) on constitutional laws. It is a complete system with God in its center - unlike the secular states which do have a government and a law but God has been deleted - left for individuals to interact with (Him) on a very personal level. Since this is a working system of most countries today, we as muslims have to deal with the situation in best possible manner. At the same time those wishing to have peaceful coexistence with muslims need to understand that worship alone is not complete Islam, a muslim needs to implement on himself/herself their religion in totality.


Yes, but "in totality" can actually mean to have faith in God instead of blind acceptance of dogmas. In her book "Allah, Liberty and Love" Irshad Manji shows both Muslims and non-Muslims how to reconcile faith and freedom in a world seething with repressive dogmas. Her key teaching is �moral courage,� the willingness to speak up when everyone else wants to shut you up. She views her book as the ultimate guide to becoming a gutsy global citizen.

Originally posted by Nausheen Nausheen wrote:

Hijab is a personal choice just like 5 daily prayers are personal choice. If ALL of muslims, not just half, but ALL of muslims were to choose not to observe their daily prayers they are still wrong. Their leaving the prayer will not make their choice correct because of their number. Just like that if all of muslim women choose not to wear a hijab they are wrong.


Are you really sure that they are wrong? Is this really the way Allah judges people? Checking strands of hair and counting prayers? What about all the Egyptian men praying five times a day and who also touch the breasts of women on the bus? Sexual harassment has become an epidemic in Egypt. Isn't dealing with this more important to Allah than the number of prayers? I'm just asking uncomfortable questions. Some Christians also think they are good Christians if they don't miss church, but during the week they buy stock based on insider knowledge. I think God loves us when we are good to other people. This is what should matter most, right?



Edited by Matt Browne - 27 November 2012 at 7:22am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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honeto View Drop Down
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Points: 2487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2012 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne Matt Browne wrote:

You consider this to be an attack on Islam? In Islam there is no compulsion in religion. So Allah gives women a choice. Muslim women who choose not to wear the hijab can still be devout followers of Islam.



Matt,
no, because Hijab is a sign of modesty and it is required of women as far as requirement goes.
I know as a matter of fact that here in the West because of fear, many including my own family women and girls do not wear Hijab rather they wear long sleeve shirts, loose pants or skirts, not showing their body form or exposing their chest, arms or legs trying to fulfill as much possible.
Same time there are those who live in Islamic countries and choose not to cover as the Quran prescribe clearly not following it.
People who want to use excuses will find many. For example like the Catholics who despite very clear commands from God right in their sacred book to not to make images or statues of any living thing make images, statues in likeness of those who once lived on earth. They make, carve and adore and worship them, all against their teachings and on top consider such acts as fulfilling God's command.
So you will find people like that all across, people will be people.
Hasan
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Points: 86 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W.S. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2012 at 3:07am
Originally posted by Abu Loren Abu Loren wrote:

I've said it before, Matt Browne is a Nazi in disguise. Anyway, why would a German have the English name like Matt Browne?
 
Abu Loren, you are one entertaining fellow! Matt Browne has had so much patience with you that I'm amazed. I recall you once told him to grow up. Maybe you should consider doing that yourself.
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