CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING?

Hi Islam,

Quote: Placid, your response is a typical Christian response. First, you say that "loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself" is the way to go, yet at the same time, you cannot bring yourself around to categorically condemn the horrific genocide in the land of Canaan that the Bible claims God (Jesus, in your view) commanded.

Response: --- You arrived at some strange conclusions from what I said.
--- First, --- A typical Christian response might have been, �That was under the Old Covenant and happened about 3080 years ago, what has that got to do with Christians today?� --- And that could be the end of the response.
--- Second, �God (Jesus, in your view)� --- is totally wrong, --- �God is God and there is no other.� --- There is no place in the NT where Jesus said, �I am God.�
--- Though some may express that, --- I don�t. --- Because Jesus was born on earth.

The same angel Gabriel that gave revelations to Muhammad, and �confirmed� the former Scriptures as being true in Surah 3:3, and 5:48, also said to Mary in Luke 1:
34 Then Mary said to the angel, �How can this be, since I do not know a man?�
35 And the angel answered and said to her, �The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.�

--- You see, the New Covenant (Testament) introduces God as our �Heavenly Father� and Jesus was CALLED the �Son of God.� --- It starts the �Family of God,� --- which true believers can be �adopted� into.
--- Jesus was not a �Son� by physical relationship, but The Holy Spirit planted the seed of Life in Mary�s womb, as it says in Surah 66:
12 And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants).
12 Rodwell: And Mary, the daughter of Imran, who kept her maidenhood, and into whose womb We breathed of Our Spirit, and who believed in the words of her Lord and His Scriptures, and was one of the devout. --- (So Jesus was CALLED the Son of God, --- and since He had no earthly Father, --- was he not from God?)

--- Third --- There is no more �condoning� of atrocities in those days than there is of �condoning� terrorism today, --- which ends up with innocent victims.

We can explain simply why it was done, --- but from 3080 years after the fact, --- I have no comment.
--- The people in the land were descendants of Noah�s 3 sons. The ones in Canaan were sons of Ham, --- and the ones in Ur of the Chaldees were sons of Shem --- but they were all idolaters.

--- Idolatry is the greatest sin against God, because �other gods� suggest an �alternative� to God. --- The people had become so overtaken with idolatry and immorality that there was no chance of recovery. --- Read about the account of Sodom and Gomorrah, in Genesis 18:16- 19:29, --- or some of the 7 places it is mentioned in the Quran. --- And how about the 360 some idols in the Kabah in Mecca when Muhammad was called to destroy idolatry, and return the people to believing in One God?

While God destroys everything that is contaminated with sin, --- the innocent children, and the ones who truly believe in God, would be judged righteous by God, would they not?.
--- When a society gets to the point where all that the children learn from their parents is idolatry and immorality, --- is it not more �merciful� to destroy the �sin center� and save the innocent children and the true believers, and grant them eternal life, --- than to have them learn to live and die in sin, and all be cast into hell?

Abraham was called out of his idolatrous family in Ur of the Chaldees, whose father was an idolater, Surah 6:
74 (Remember) when Abraham said unto his father Azar: Takest thou idols for gods? Lo! I see thee and thy folk in error manifest.
Also, different places in the Quran God said, �How many cities have We destroyed because of their sin?�    
   

Placid

Placid wrote: Response: --- You arrived at some strange conclusions from what I said. --- First, --- A typical Christian response might have been, �That was under the Old Covenant and happened about 3080 years ago, what has that got to do with Christians today?�

Placid, your response was typical of Christians as I explained.  You tried to excuse the genocide instead of condemning it as any rational individual would do. 

Placid wrote: Second, �God (Jesus, in your view)� --- is totally wrong, --- �God is God and there is no other.� --- There is no place in the NT where Jesus said, �I am God.� --- Though some may express that, --- I don�t. --- Because Jesus was born on earth.

I am glad to hear you say that!  I apologize for assuming that you believe Jesus was God.  But as you identify yourself as a Christian, my assumption was understandable.  If I may ask, are you a Jehovah's Witness?

But the problem still remains.  If God ordered these killings, yet at the same time, God is just and fair, how do you reconcile the killing of babies?

Placid wrote: The same angel Gabriel that gave revelations to Muhammad, and �confirmed� the former Scriptures as being true in Surah 3:3, and 5:48, also said to Mary in Luke 1: 34 Then Mary said to the angel, �How can this be, since I do not know a man?� 35 And the angel answered and said to her, �The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.�

This is off-topic but let me just say that the Holy Quran states clearly that Jesus is NOT the "son of God":

"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!" (9:30)

Placid wrote: Rodwell: And Mary, the daughter of Imran, who kept her maidenhood, and into whose womb We breathed of Our Spirit, and who believed in the words of her Lord and His Scriptures, and was one of the devout. --- (So Jesus was CALLED the Son of God, --- and since He had no earthly Father, --- was he not from God?)

The Quran has a very simple answer for this:

"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was." (3:59)

Placid wrote: Third --- There is no more �condoning� of atrocities in those days than there is of �condoning� terrorism today, --- which ends up with innocent victims.

There were innocent victims in the Israelite genocides.  I have yet to hear one Christian condemn these genocides.  On the other hand, plenty of Muslims condemn terrorism done in the name of Islam, and the Quran and Sunnah both categorically condemn the killing of innocent people.

Placid wrote: We can explain simply why it was done, --- but from 3080 years after the fact, --- I have no comment.

Exactly!  This is the Christian answer: ignore it.  But your answer also shows me that in the back of your mind, you know it is wrong.  You just can't bring yourself around to say it because it would mean you are questioning what you believe is "scripture". 

Placid wrote: The people in the land were descendants of Noah�s 3 sons. The ones in Canaan were sons of Ham, --- and the ones in Ur of the Chaldees were sons of Shem --- but they were all idolaters. Idolatry is the greatest sin against God, because �other gods� suggest an �alternative� to God. --- The people had become so overtaken with idolatry and immorality that there was no chance of recovery. --- Read about the account of Sodom and Gomorrah, in Genesis 18:16- 19:29, --- or some of the 7 places it is mentioned in the Quran. --- And how about the 360 some idols in the Kabah in Mecca when Muhammad was called to destroy idolatry, and return the people to believing in One God?

 

I thought you said you had no comment?  Now you are trying to find excuses again.  What does the facts that the people of Canaan were descendants of Noah's sons and were all idolaters have to do with the killing of innocent children and babies?  Why are you trying to excuse the inexcusable?

Placid wrote: While God destroys everything that is contaminated with sin, --- the innocent children, and the ones who truly believe in God, would be judged righteous by God, would they not?.

None of this changes the fact that these children were killed in the most gruesome ways.  Just imagine what the scene must have looked like.  Innocent children and babies being slaughtered like lambs with the sword, and their blood staining the earth.  I doubt any rational person can say it was okay to kill them since they would "judged righteous by God..." 

Placid wrote: When a society gets to the point where all that the children learn from their parents is idolatry and immorality, --- is it not more �merciful� to destroy the �sin center� and save the innocent children and the true believers, and grant them eternal life, --- than to have them learn to live and die in sin, and all be cast into hell?

If that is the case, then one could argue that such behavior should be done even today.  If the idea is to "save" them from Hell, then all children living in the modern world, where sin is everywhere, should be killed.  Furthermore, who is to say that those children could not be taught to worship the One God?   

Islam totally rejects this twisted logic:

"Yazid ibn Hurmaz reported: Najda wrote a letter to Ibn Abbas asking him about killing children. He wrote back saying, �You wrote to me and asked me about killing children. The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, did not kill them and you should not kill them, unless you know about them what the companion of Moses knew about the boy.�" (Musnad Ahmad, #3254)

Placid wrote: Abraham was called out of his idolatrous family in Ur of the Chaldees, whose father was an idolater, Surah 6: 74 (Remember) when Abraham said unto his father Azar: Takest thou idols for gods? Lo! I see thee and thy folk in error manifest. Also, different places in the Quran God said, �How many cities have We destroyed because of their sin?�

But was Abraham (pbuh) killed?  Of course not! 

And as far as the cities that were punished, they were destroyed by God Himself, not by an army under His command.  God decides who lives and who dies, not humans.  This is true in everyday life as well as in battle.  In battle, God has decreed that killing unarmed civilians is am abhorrent sin. 

Greetings Islamispeace,

I appreciate all that you have said.

15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, �Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.�
17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name.
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. 
(Deuteronomy 18, I have used both KJV and NIV to make reading easier without detracting from the true message)

and Deuteronomy 34

10 Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, 11 who did all those signs and wonders the Lord sent him to do in Egypt�to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land. 12 For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all Israel.

 ... until Jesus.  Jesus is this "new thing" which God decides to do, because the people asked for it.

37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.� 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.  - the words of Jesus.

islamispeace wrote:   What sort of twisted individual is not disturbed by these monstrous verses?

You are correct, and this is why so many people reject religion... reject the notion of God.
and as I said...

"Most followers of Jesus also have trouble reconciling with what went on in the old testament... but that is why they do not follow the old testament but the Gospel... the new covenant."

islamispeace wrote: If you are critical of Muhammad (pbuh), are you also criticial of Moses (pbuh)?

Honestly... yes, I am.  I only accept Moses because it was the first appearance of God to the people, and then in the later scriptures, more than once, God says that He is revealing that He will do a new thing, and it will not be understood until its time arrives.  I believe in Jesus as the new covenant... that God of the old testament and of the first followers... i.e., Abraham et.al. ... God of the old testament was a God who visited His wrath, time and again, on His people, and it did no good... so yes, I believe God was doing just as He said He would do... He was "doing a new thing" when He decided to come to the people in human form, to show rather than His wrath, but the depth of His Love.  It is this Love that leads the followers of Jesus to God.  'Greater love has no one than this... that he lay down his life for another.'  It is in seeing this great love in the sacrifice God made for us that we are led to Love in return, and Love leads one into obedience, out of a desire not to cause hurt to the One who loves us so much.

Regarding this;

Old Testament Ways - When Sihon and all his army came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz, 33 the Lord our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army. 34 At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them�men, women and children. We left no survivors. 35 But the livestock and the plunder from the towns we had captured we carried off for ourselves. (Deuteronomy 2:32-34)

Your comparisons are like comparing apples with oranges because it does not compare the word of the torah with the word of the quran.  And regardless of what was said, the followers of Muhammad did the things boldened above.  Muhammad was well known for conquering and taking the conquered as slaves.

What I mean by Muhammad revives the old testament ways is the 'eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth', kind of thinking.  Jesus taught if anyone smite the one cheek, offer him the other... Jesus taught, whoever is without sin may cast the first stone... and 'go and sin no more', you are forgiven your sins.  Jesus taught mercy.  To some extent Muhammad understood mercy, but not entirely.  He was willing not to kill, but to subjugate.  This was also to his benefit since he could then collect taxes from those whom he subjugated.  You can't collect anything from a dead man.  So we can question his motivation.  I am not saying I have the answer, but I do know that the things he did are questionable.  And the quran instructs to smite the necks of all unbelievers(anyone who will not take the shahada, anyone who does not believe in Muhammad, even though they believe in the One God), this is no different that the Israelites being commanded to kill all the Canaanites, classifying them all as pagan idolators(i.e., as evil people)... same thing.  Islam views anyone non-muslim the same way the Israelites were told to treat the Canaanites.  Old covenant ways vs. new covenant ways.  Islam ignores the 'new thing' which God brought.

"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them�bring them here and kill them in front of me." (Luke 19:27)"

Yes, I have a problem with that scripture.  Let it also be noted that none of the Apostles acted in this way.  In fact Jesus reprimanded Peter for cutting of the ear of one who came to arrest Jesus.

I honestly can not understand the 'Gill's exposition'.  If I can find the time and energy to delve into it at another time I will.

Salaam,
CH

We'll see if this is allowed to post.


Edited by Caringheart - 02 December 2012 at 9:17pm

islamispeace wrote: Placid, your response is a typical Christian response.� First, you say that "loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself" is the way to go, yet at the same time, you cannot bring yourself around to categorically condemn the horrific genocide in the land of Canaan that the Bible claims God (Jesus, in your view) commanded.� Also, it wasn't just the Amalekites which were "annihilated".� It was also the Midianites...and the Hittites...and the Amorites...and the Perizzites...and so on...What I find even more ironic is the fact that the same Christians who so enthusiastically defend the Biblically-sanctioned genocide also have the audacity to actually criticize the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for fighting against his enemies and killing them!� Yet, Muhammad (pbuh) did not kill women, children, the elderly, or farm animals!� I don't know if you are one of these Christians, but it is an all too common hypocrisy amongst many of your brethren.�

somebody should add a like button in this forum