CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? |
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Placid
Senior Member Male Joined: 01 November 2012 Status: Offline Points: 236 |
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Hi Honeto,
Quote: �so according to your book, God ordered killings of man and women who do not believe as you do.� Response: --- By now you will have read my response to Islam. However, I want to ask you, �What is written in your book?� Surah 6:6 See they not how many of those before them We did destroy? - generations We had established on the earth, in strength such as We have not given to you - for whom We poured out rain from the skies in abundance, and gave (fertile) streams flowing beneath their (feet): yet for their sins We destroyed them, and raised in their wake fresh generations (to succeed them). 10:13 We destroyed the generations before you when they did wrong; and their messengers (from Allah) came unto them with clear proofs (of His Sovereignty) but they would not believe. Thus do We reward the guilty folk. 17:16 When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then (it is) We destroy them utterly. 18:59 And (all) those townships! We destroyed them when they did wrong, and We appointed a fixed time for their destruction. 21:95 And there is a ban upon any community which We have destroyed: that they shall not return. 22:45 How many a township have We destroyed while it was sinful, so that it lieth (to this day) in ruins, and (how many) a deserted well and lofty tower! 25:36 Then We said: Go together unto the folk who have denied Our revelations. Then We destroyed them, a complete destruction. 25:39 To each one We set forth Parables and examples; and each one We broke to utter annihilation (for their sins). 29:31 When Our Apostles came to Abraham with the good news, they said: "We are indeed going to destroy the people of this township: for truly they are (addicted to) crime." 29:40 Each one of them We seized for his crime: of them, against some We sent a violent tornado (with showers of stones); some were caught by a (mighty) Blast; some We caused the earth to swallow up; and some We drowned (in the waters): It was not Allah Who injured (or oppressed) them: They injured (and oppressed) their own souls. 32:26 Does it not teach them a lesson, how many generations We destroyed before them, in whose dwellings they (now) go to and fro? Verily in that are Signs: Do they not then listen? 38:3 How many generations before them did We destroy? In the end they cried (for mercy)- when there was no longer time for being saved! 50:36 But how many generations before them did We destroy (for their sins), - stronger in power than they? Then did they wander through the land: was there any place of escape (for them)? God was merciful and gave them warning, or an example, --- but sin reaches a limit, --- and that is what is coming again, is it not? Placid |
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honeto
Senior Member Male Islam Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 2487 |
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Jakallah brother, great replies to all three above.
Truth stands out clear from error and cover ups. Hasan |
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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bunter
Senior Member Male Joined: 28 March 2011 Status: Offline Points: 123 |
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The position is that the Bible does describe events where large numbers are killed. In many cases one can rationalise what is done but that i think is unwise and the premier emotion is one of sorrow. But in Christian and Jewish theology we say those stories are closed, that is we acknowledge they happened but they are not examples to be followed. We may read the stories and there may be lessons we can learn but that is all. In Islam there have been many genocides from the massacre of the Jews in medina to Darfur. The question is do Muslims feel a deep sence of sorrow for these events and/or use them as examples to follow? Edited by bunter - 29 November 2012 at 1:54pm |
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islamispeace
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2187 |
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Ameen! |
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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islamispeace
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2187 |
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Jazak Allah Khair, brother. |
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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islamispeace
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2187 |
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In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...
Bunter, you said:
One cannot "rationalize" the irrational. Killing babies is not only irrational, it is evil. God is not evil. God is merciful, compassionate, just and fair. In short, God is good. By "acknowledging" the stories of infanticide, Jews and Christians are acknowledging evil, but also accepting a lie against God. God did not order those crimes, if they even happened. There are no "lessons" to be learned from reading these stories. If you can name them, please be my guest. I, for one, cannot fathom what bizarre "lesson" one can gain from baby-killing.
What on earth does Darfur have to do with this? I can understand your reference to the Bani Qurayza incident, but Darfur? In any case, the punishment of the Bani Qurayza pales in comparison to the actual genocide in the Bible. The ones that were killed of the Bani Qurayza were their fighters, not the women and children. Therefore, it is like comparing "apples to oranges", as Caringheart puts it. Furthermore, the Bani Qurayza were only punished after their betrayal of Muhammad (pbuh) during the Battle of the Trench. On the other hand, the Canaanites had done nothing to the Israelites to be wiped off the face of the earth. And Allah knows best. |
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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islamispeace
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2187 |
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In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...
Caringheart, you said:
Well that's great, but did you understand and contemplate the simple truth or did you cast it aside like so many others? Let' see.
This is all irrelevant, as I said before. None of this changes the fact that from your point of view, it was Jesus who would have been the one to have ordered the Israelites to commit genocide and infanticide. Pontificating on a "New Covenant" does not erase the legacy of genocide.
But the point is that it should not have to be this way! God is good, not evil. The Biblical stories of genocide are evil. Therefore, they could not have been the result of God's command. In short, God did not command the Israelites to commit genocide. This is a lie against God which the Judeo-Christian tradition has perpetuated for centuries.
I expected this sort of answer..self-contradictory. You say you are critical of Moses (pbuh) but then you say that you still "accept" him because it was God's "first appearance". How can you criticize him yet still "accept" him? More importantly, how can you be critical of him if he was only doing the will of God?
"It did no good..."?? Then why did God do it? Wouldn't He have known that it would do "no good"? Are you accusing God of incompetence, astagfirAllah? Be careful you do not blaspheme His Holy Name.
What good is this gesture of "love" when: 1. For centuries prior, there was only "wrath", pain and violence; 2. In the end, all who rejected God will once again experience His "wrath"? Furthermore, how can any of us "hurt" God? As the Quran says, God does not need us. Rather, it is us who need Him: "O ye men! It is ye that have need of Allah: but Allah is the One Free of all wants, worthy of all praise." (3:15) Therefore, whether we accept Him or not, He does not need anything from us. We reject Him to our own detriment.
Well of course it is "like comparing apples with oranges"! That's what I was saying! There is no comparison between the two. And contrary to your claim, I was comparing the "Word of the [alleged] Torah" and the "Word of the Quran". The verses describing the genocide are from the alleged Torah.
And that bothers you...but what Moses did is somehow justified? Wow... Also, let me just correct you for more of your absurd claims regarding Muhammad (pbuh). He conquered his enemies, not innocent people, unlike the Moses of the Bible. Moreover, he did not kill women and children, unlike the Moses of the Bible. How you have any reason to complain about Muhammad (pbuh) is beyond comprehension.
Actually, the Quran declares that when God revealed the true Torah to the Jews, it included a stipulation to the "an eye for an eye" maxim: "We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers." (2:45) So, while God allowed the victims of injustice to demand justice, He also stipulated that it was best to forgive, because forgiveness would atone for their own sins. This teaching was also applied to Muslims: "The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allah: for (Allah) loveth not those who do wrong." (42:40) There is also a famous hadith of the Prophet which stipulates the importance of forgiveness: "Mu�adh ibn Anas reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said, �The best of virtues is that you maintain relations with one who cuts you off, that you give to one who deprives you, and that you pardon one who insults you.�" (Musnad Ahmad, Number 15191)
This is more nonsense. It is well-known that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) lived a simple life of poverty and gave away all his possessions to others. So, if he was interested in acquiring wealth which was at his fingertips, giving it away would not be prudent. Here is the proof that his "motivation" was not wealth, as you so ignorantly assumed: "Narrated 'Amr bin Al-Harith: The Prophet did not leave anything (after his death) except his arms, a white mule, and a (piece of) land which he had given as Sadaqa." (Sahih Bukhari, Book 53, Number 330) "Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah Apostle said, "If I had gold equal to the mountain of Uhud, it would not please me that anything of it should remain with me after three nights (i.e., I would spend all of it in Allah's Cause) except what I would keep for repaying debts."" (Sahih Bukhari, Book 76, Number 452) "Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Riches does not mean, having a great amount of property, but riches is self-contentment."" (Sahih Bukhari, Book 76, Number 453) "Narrated 'Aisha: The bed mattress of the Prophet was made of a leather case stuffed with palm fibres." (Sahih Bukhari, Book 76, Number 463) Also, if you were more knowledgeable about the tax that the Prophet took from non-Muslims, you would know that it was only taken from males, not women and children. Therefore, if taxes were his motivation for not killing women and children, as you claim, then there is no reason he would not have killed them!
You certainly don't have the answers because of your ignorance and bias.
I can see you are getting more and more desperate to make Muhammad (pbuh) seem just as bloodthirsty as the Moses of the Bible, whom you hypocritically accept. Here is what the Quran actually says: "Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost." (47:4) "But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things)." (8:61) I think we can see a pattern emerging in your posts. You know nothing about Islam or the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and you make accusations which you don't actually support with solid evidence.
The point is that this "New Covenant" has an expiration date. After this, says the Bible, Jesus will revert to the old ways and will command his followers (which includes you) to kill all who reject him. Therefore, this "love" you speak of is not for all times and it is conditional. And Allah knows best. Walaikum as-salaam. |
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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honeto
Senior Member Male Islam Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 2487 |
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Bunter, by the way what lessons do you learn from those stories, and who declared that those are not to be followed, and if they are so bad, why are they there in the first place. According to your guys, Jesus is "love" and that he was with the father since the beginning so what was going on then, as these acts were actually quoted to have been directed by God as commands! And did not Jesus in the NT is quoted to have said that every iota of the law has to be fulfilled. And that he did not come to abolish but to fulfill, didn't he? Oh my..! Hasan |
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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