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To, The Hadith Haters
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Mahdi The Seeke View Drop Down
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Points: 260 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mahdi The Seeke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 October 2012 at 1:24pm
It was narrated from Abu
Sa'eed al-Khudri that the
Messenger of Allaah (peace
and blessings of Allaah be
upon him) said: "Do not write
anything from me; whoever has written anything from me
other than the Qur'aan, let him
erase it and narrate from me,
for there is nothing wrong
with that." (Narrated by
Muslim, al-Zuhd wa'l-Raqaa'iq, 5326)
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Mahdi The Seeke View Drop Down
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http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_1/history_hadith_1_(P1148).html

http://www.bigissueground.com/atheistground/asadi-koranandhadith.shtml

Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 31 October 2012 at 11:46pm
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2012 at 10:17am

Originally posted by Abu Loren Abu Loren wrote:

Ask yourself what is the point in sending a final revelation to mankind if people are worshipping God any way they pleased? It has to be the way He wants to worship Him.

What if the point is for people to worship God "any way they please"?  "The way He wants [us] to worship Him" is fully specified in the Quran.  Beyond that, is it so improbable that (just like us) God actually loves diversity and creativity and imagination, and despises rote learning and mindless repetition of formulaic prayers?  What if by giving us free will and intelligence, God actually intended us to use that free will and intelligence?  What if He prefers billions of different celebrations of life and faith, instead of endless repetitions of the same old same old?

-----
I was reminded of this discussion when I encountered an article by Anwar al-Awlaki, "The Ruling on Dispossessing the Disbelievers wealth in Dar al-Harb".  At first I thought to make this a separate topic, but the fact is that nobody here (I hope!) actually wants to defend this article so it might make for a rather one-sided discussion.

My point in referencing the article is that IMHO al-Awlaki's argument is very compelling, if you accept the sunnah and hadith as legitimate authority.  You'll note that the article relies almost entirely on those sources, and on Hanafi rulings which in turn rely heavily on them.  It makes almost no reference to the Quran.

Al-Awlaki's main conclusion is that "All of our scholars agree on the permissibility of taking away the wealth of the disbelievers in dar al-harb whether by means of force or by means of theft or deception."  My question is: assuming that you don't agree with this, how can you challenge it without rejecting the premises on which it is based?
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Friendship View Drop Down
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Points: 884 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Friendship Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2012 at 10:39am
Assalamu alaika Ronn.

To answer you, you have to define and explain the meaning of 'disbelievers' in a scientific way. Give its origin and application with examples.
My advice is: it is wrong in Islam that is the final Message to believe in what some one says. It is not allowed for one to speak on something he does not understand. Much of our problem could have solved have we stuck to the teaching of Muhammad Rasulullah. Now, if you want me to reply, you will never understand because you do not know the history of Muhammad especially the causation of his actions.
Please use your common sense: If what they said is true, why did Muhammad not attack the Makkans who drove him forcefully from his birth place Makka? 

Friendship
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Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

Originally posted by Abu Loren Abu Loren wrote:

Ask yourself what is the point in sending a final revelation to mankind if people are worshipping God any way they pleased? It has to be the way He wants to worship Him.

What if the point is for people to worship God "any way they please"?  "The way He wants [us] to worship Him" is fully specified in the Quran.  Beyond that, is it so improbable that (just like us) God actually loves diversity and creativity and imagination, and despises rote learning and mindless repetition of formulaic prayers?  What if by giving us free will and intelligence, God actually intended us to use that free will and intelligence?  What if He prefers billions of different celebrations of life and faith, instead of endless repetitions of the same old same old?



You are quite correct Ron,

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name........

The words of Jesus.



Edited by Caringheart - 17 November 2012 at 11:17am
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2012 at 12:22pm

Originally posted by Friendship Friendship wrote:

To answer you, you have to define and explain the meaning of 'disbelievers' in a scientific way. Give its origin and application with examples.

It's really more a question of how al-Awlaki defines it, since he is the one using the word; but it's pretty obvious from the article that he is referring to all non-Muslims.

Quote My advice is: it is wrong in Islam that is the final Message to believe in what some one says. It is not allowed for one to speak on something he does not understand. Much of our problem could have solved have we stuck to the teaching of Muhammad Rasulullah. Now, if you want me to reply, you will never understand because you do not know the history of Muhammad especially the causation of his actions.

I understand al-Awlaki's article.  I'm not sure why you don't think I would understand your reply.

Quote Please use your common sense: If what they said is true, why did Muhammad not attack the Makkans who drove him forcefully from his birth place Makka? 

Well first of all, I don't think it's true, because I don't believe the premise on which it is based, i.e. I don't believe that Muhammad (or Allah) ever intended the sunnah and hadith to become part of eternal Muslim doctrine.  But if I did, I would simply respond by saying that Muhammad was not in a position to attack anybody when he was forced from Mecca.  I have no doubt that he would have, if he could have.

The more important question is, if you don't believe it's true, then how do you refute his argument?
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Friendship View Drop Down
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Points: 884 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Friendship Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2012 at 1:08pm
Assalamu alaika Ronn.

The problem of the followers of Muhammad is this: They do not believe that the holy Qur'an is referring to them. They regard disbelief etc to apply only to those who had prophets before them and that whatever they do they are not disbelievers. So, how can you argue with such kind of people? It is wrong for example to address you as a disbeliever because you do not believe in the Message Muhammad brought. it is wrong to call and address West as disbelievers likewise.
If the property of disbelievers is to be possessed Muhammad could not have told his people to forget about their property in Makka after the conquest. Secondly, they could not be requested to pay for  protection money since they do not participate in such battles. If the West want honestly to know Islam they have the means.
The truth is: All the battles fought by Muhammad were defensive. He fought the Arabs who broke agreements. He fought the Roman empire that threatened his existence.
Both the Qur'an and the hadith are eternal. The Qur'an describes the physical world and all that we know. The hadith describes that security and peace all the wishes and needs of man ARE TIED TO OBEDIENCE TO MUHAMMAD. OTHERWISE IT IS NOTHING BUT A CONSTRAINED WAY OF LIFE. I THINK, THE TIME HAS COME TO OPEN OUR EARS TO THOSE CALLING FOR A PEACEFUL WORLD. IT IS NOT THE SUNNA THAT HAS FAILED BUT ITS APPLICATION IS DISTORTED AND TWISTED.

Friendship.














 



Edited by Friendship - 17 November 2012 at 1:15pm
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Beebok View Drop Down
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Points: 72 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beebok Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2012 at 10:00am
Ron Webb, "And how does one obey a Messenger?  By obeying his Message, of course; but in doing so you are obeying Allah, not Muhammad."

The same is probably true of the statement attributed to Jesus in the Bible where he is supposed to have said, "if you have seen me, you have seen God."

If a king sends a messenger, and someone refuses to see the messenger, then they have in effect, refused to see the king.

Alas, we can not know what Jesus actually said from the Bible. But if he did say such a thing, this was probably his meaning.
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