CHRISTIANS - Answer this Question

Hi Hasan

Quote: PRIME EXAMPLE OF BIBLE ALTERATION, PRIME EXAMPLE OF BIBLE ALTERATION, here you got it! --- And in Red Letters too.

Response: --- Well you sure caught me off guard with that. --- I had never heard before that the Christians went back and changed the prophecies of Isaiah.

I thought I better check this out too. --- (I will give more info later, but this is a start.)

--- I checked the oldest known copies of Isaiah and found the following:

Quote: The Great Isaiah Scroll (1QIsaa) is one of the original seven Dead Sea Scrolls discovered in Qumran in 1947. It is the largest (734 cm) and best preserved of all the biblical scrolls, and the only one that is almost complete. The 54 columns contain all 66 chapters of the Hebrew version of the biblical Book of Isaiah. Dating from ca. 125 BCE, it is also one of the oldest of the Dead Sea Scrolls, some one thousand years older than the oldest manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible known to us before the scrolls' discovery. --- End of quote.

--- I Found one thing which I will mention later, but I thought I would check with the Douay first, as it was translated to English from the Latin Vulgate before 400 AD, --- which carried the Scriptures through from 400 -1600 AD:
6 For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.
7 His empire shall be multiplied, and there shall be no end of peace: he shall sit upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom; to establish it and strengthen it with judgment and with justice, from henceforth and for ever: the zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Amplified:
6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father [of Eternity], Prince of Peace.(C)
7 Of the increase of His government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from the [latter] time forth, even forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.(D)

Knox Bible: (A few out of the ordinary translations.)

6 For our sakes a child is born, to our race a son is given, whose shoulder will bear the sceptre of princely power. What name shall be given him? Peerless among counsellors, the mighty God, Father of the world to come, the Prince of peace. 7 Ever wider shall his dominion spread, endlessly at peace; he will sit on David�s kingly throne, to give it lasting foundations of justice and right; so tenderly he loves us, the Lord of hosts.

Young�s Literal Translation:
For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.
7 To the increase of the princely power, And of peace, there is no end, On the throne of David, and on his kingdom, To establish it, and to support it, In judgment and in righteousness, Henceforth, even unto the age, The zeal of Jehovah of Hosts doth this.

Complete Jewish Bible:
5 (6) For a child is born to us,
a son is given to us;
dominion will rest on his shoulders,
and he will be given the name
Pele-Yo�etz El Gibbor
Avi-�Ad Sar-Shalom
[Wonder of a Counselor, Mighty God,
Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace],
6 (7) in order to extend the dominion
and perpetuate the peace
of the throne and kingdom of David,
to secure it and sustain it
through justice and righteousness
henceforth and forever.
The zeal of Adonai-Tzva�ot
will accomplish this.

(There are slight variations, but the Dead Sea Scroll next.)


Placid

Hi Abu,

Quote:
(I said)--- I have said many times that Jesus was human from a human mother, So Jesus himself was not deity --- but because he had no human father, the Word and the Holy Spirit that indwelt his human body, were from God, --- and were one with God. --- So, since Jesus was a �son,� --- who do you say his �Father� was?
(You said) --- Jesus (pbuh) did not have a father, he was 'made' through a miraculous virgin birth. Therefore this is the reason that Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala refers to Jesus as son of Mary. I don't know if you are aware but in Arabic culture a man is known as son of - (name of father).

Response: --- Yes, it was the same with the Jews, the lineage was always through the father. --- This is why the genealogy in Matthew is from Abraham through David, and through David�s son Solomon, down to Joseph �who was the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.� 1:16.
So in the Roman census Jesus was recorded as the son of Joseph, who was his foster father.

--- The other genealogy goes backwards from Mary, and records this in Luke 3:
23 �Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about 30 years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph.� --- This was the true line from David to Mary through David�s son Nathan.



(I said) --- We both believe there is only One God, --- and though we can�t see God, or His Holy Spirit, He can manifest Himself through other Personages, as He had done in the OT.
(You asked) --- What other Personages are you talking about? This will be interesting.

Response: --- As Melchizedek in Genesis 14:
18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High. --- And a description is given in Hebrews 7:
1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham, and blessed him,
2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated �king of righteousness,� and then also king of Salem, meaning �king of peace,�
3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

*** As the Lord in Genesis 18:
1 Then the Lord appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground,
3 and said, �My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant.
16 Then the men rose from there and looked toward Sodom, and Abraham went with them to send them on the way.
17 And the Lord said, �Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing,
18 since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the Lord, to do righteousness and justice, that the Lord may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him.� 20 And the Lord said, �Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, --- (He would destroy them).
22 Then the men (angels) turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord.

*** As the Angel of the Lord in Exodus 3:
1     Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.
2     2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.
3     3 Then Moses said, �I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.�
4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, �Moses, Moses!�
And he said, �Here I am.�
4     5Then He said, �Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.�
5     6Moreover He said, �I am the God of your father�the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.� And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

*** As the Commander of the Lord�s army in Joshua 5:
13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, �Are You for us or for our adversaries?�
14 So He said, �No, but as Commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.�
And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, �What does my Lord say to His servant?�
15 Then the Commander of the Lord�s army said to Joshua, �Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.� And Joshua did so.

*** From the Book of Judges to the Book of Malachi, the LORD of Hosts is a common name for God. (The Jehovah�s Witnesses say Jehovah of Armies).
He represented God, but was never seen by man

*** As the fourth Man in the fiery furnace in Daniel 3:
13 Then Nebuchadnezzar, in rage and fury, gave the command to bring Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego. So they brought these men before the king. --- (They would not bow down before the image of the king.)
20 And he commanded certain mighty men of valor who were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, and cast them into the burning fiery furnace
24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar was astonished; and he rose in haste and spoke, saying to his counselors, �Did we not cast three men bound into the midst of the fire?� They answered and said to the king, �True, O king.�
25 �Look!� he answered, �I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.�

--- Since God cannot be seen, I believe these Personages were the Word (Logos).
The Trinitarians usual say these appearances were the �Pre-incarnate Christ.�
--- They were not Jesus, as He hadn�t been born yet. --- But I believe that they were the Word that transferred from the LORD of hosts to Jesus, since the LORD of hosts was no more mentioned after Jesus was born, because the Word (Logos) took on the role of the Christ, indwelling the physical body of Jesus. --- Malachi 3:1.


(I asked) --- Why does Muhammad say, �Their reward is with �their� Lord, or �his� Lord,� --- rather than saying, �Their reward is with �our� Lord?

(You said) ---Muhammad (pbuh) doesn't say anything. As a Christian you can be forgiven for thinking that the Holy Qur'an is the work of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) but to over a billion Muslims it is the inerrant Words or Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala.

Response: -- Sorry, what I should have asked was, �Why does the Quran say, �Their reward is with �their� Lord, or �his� Lord,� --- rather than saying, �Their reward is with �our� Lord?
--- Or are they written differently in your version?
(You asked) By the way, is English your mother tongue?
Response: --- Yes.


Placid

(To continue with):
The Dead Sea Scrolls

1. The Dead Sea Scrolls at the Gnostic Society Library: Online Texts from ...
A large collection of texts online from the Dead Sea Scrolls,
Complete Scholarly Translations of Scroll Texts with Commentary

Quote: Great Isaiah Scroll (Fred Miller) -- This site presents the most impressive internet presentation of a complete scroll from the DSS. While the site offers little of interest to a casual reader, it gives glimpses into the issues involved in the analysis and translation of a scroll. It includes black & white plates of each column of The Great Isaiah Scroll (one of the first seven scrolls found in Cave 1, and the oldest extant Hebrew biblical manuscript), along with detailed notes on the physical condition of the manuscript and comparison of its orthography and wording with the standard Masoretic text. The technical discussions of the site are obviously intended for scholars familiar with Hebrew

The Great Isaiah Scroll (1QIsaa) is one of the original seven Dead Sea Scrolls discovered in Qumran in 1947. It is the largest (734 cm) and best preserved of all the biblical scrolls, and the only one that is almost complete. The 54 columns contain all 66 chapters of the Hebrew version of the biblical Book of Isaiah. Dating from ca. 125 BCE, it is also one of the oldest of the Dead Sea Scrolls, some one thousand years older than the oldest manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible known to us before the scrolls' discovery.
--- It exhibits a very full orthography (spelling), revealing how Hebrew was pronounced in the Second Temple Period. Around twenty additional copies of the Book of Isaiah were also found at Qumran (one more copy was discovered further south at Wadi Muraba'at), as well as six pesharim (commentaries) based on the book; Isaiah is also frequently quoted in other scrolls (a literary and religious phenomenon also present in New Testament writings). The authoritative and scriptural status of the Book of Isaiah is consistent with the messianic beliefs of the community living at Qumran, since Isaiah is known for his prophecies of judgment and consolation, and his visions of the End of Days and the coming of the Kingdom of God. --- End of quote.

7:14 �Therefore the LORD Himself will give you a Sign. The young woman has conceived and is bearing a son, and His name will be Immanuel.�

8:1 Moreover, the LORD said to me, �Take a large scroll and write on it with a man�s pen ---
13 The LORD of hosts, consider Him holy, revere Him, be in awe of Him.
14 He will be a sanctuary, but also �a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence,� to both the house of Israel, a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 Many among them may stumble and fall.
16 Bind up the testimony and seal the instructions among my disciples.
17 I will wait for the LORD who is hiding His face from the house of Jacob and I will hope for him.
18 Here I am with the children the LORD has given me as a Sign and a wonder in Israel from the LORD of hosts who dwells in Mount Zion.�

9:2 ��The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light. On those who lived in the land of deep shadows, light has shined.�
3 You have expanded the nation, you have increased its joy. They rejoice in your presence as with the joy at harvest, as people cheer as they divide spoil.
4 For the yoke of their burden and the pole on their shoulder, the rod of their oppressors , --- and you have broken, as in the day of Midion.�

9:6 �For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will be upon His shoulders. He is called Wonderful Councilor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.
7 His government shall expand, and peace will be endless for the throne of David and his kingdom, to establish it and to sustain it with justice and righteousness from now on and forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do it.�

(Next we can study it)


Placid

Placid wrote: Response: --- Hebrews wasn�t written by Paul, and I don�t see any identification of Melchizedek in Surah 18. Some sources say the references are to Alexander the Great. --- Melchizedek dated back to Genesis, but the description is in Hebrews in these words: --- Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually. If we understand that Almighty God never left Heaven, and that Jesus had a genealogy with beginning and end of life on earth, --- this figure was neither God nor Jesus. So who do you say it was? You see, I don�t try to defend these difficult Scriptures, I just write them the way they are. --- However, what I found was this in Surah 18: 27 �And recite that which hath been revealed unto thee of the Scripture of thy Lord. There is none who can change His words, and thou wilt find no refuge beside Him.�

Either you are confused or I am. Whoever wrote the Book of Hebrews, did he also have revelations from God? No he was just writing hiw own thoughts.I don't understand about the geneology bit.