The Embassy Attacks

Ron Webb wrote: abuayisha wrote: "sigh" Let me see if I can say it for you, abuayisha: Islam does not need to be reformed.

Friendship wrote: You said: Unfortunately, the 'no compulsion in religion' principle often gets overruled in the Quran and Sunnah. Response: Let us be wise please! How can Qur'an and the Sunna overrule an injunction in the Qur'an. Let us straighten the wheel please. In other words you are saying that Allah contradicted himself.

I didn't use the word contradiction. Overruling is different. There is also the principle of abrogation ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_%28tafsir%29#Theory )

Friendship wrote: The minimum protection given to uphold the dignity of women is for them to wear the veil. This is the meaning. If they feel that they will be dignified by not wearing the veil, they are free. To concur to that Muhammad allowed one to gaze at a woman twice. The fornication through the eyes, ears and sound is forgiven by Allah and not through physical contact.

Protection from who? No protection is needed when male adults behave like adults. Forcing women to wear veils because a small minority of immature men fail to behave properly is outrageous. Besides, even veils don't help as we can see in Egypt at the moment with men touching the breasts of women on the bus. In my country women would slap such men and possibly report such behavior to the police. So the problem are horny immature men. This doesn't give men the right to punish all women by forcing them to wear veils. In Egypt a new constitution is now in place. Egyptian women are now officially second-class citizens without equal rights. Egypt is on its way toward theocratic fascism.




Edited by Matt Browne - 01 December 2012 at 4:02am

Matt Browne wrote: honeto wrote: "Every citizen in a modern political system has the right to believe in God or not believe in God." That is how it was in the Prophet's time. No one was forced to believe him. Those (many) who believed him did so out of their free will,and those (many) who did not believe in him to be the prophet did so out of their free will. He established a system, where each one has the right to choose after the warning from God has reached. He warned of the consequences in the hereafter as we do today to those who reject God. So, it is not true that the current political system was the first one to give a person to decide for themselves what they wanted to believe. What people do out of their own understanding and actions is another story like with any other belief or system, but the Quran is clear on this matter. 2:256 (Y. Ali) Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. Hasan Unfortunately, the 'no compulsion in religion' principle often gets overruled in the Quran and Sunnah. Muslims here on Islamicity told me that female Muslims must wear the hijab. I thought Allah gave them a choice. But it goes far beyond this. Right after Muhammad died in 632 CE Muslim apostates were killed in the name of Islam. What followed was Islamic imperialism for more than 800 years. Many of those who believed in the Prophet did not so out of their free will. If Jews and Christians wanted to avoid paying the fine, they had no choice. Polytheists and other nonbelievers had no choice: either convert to Islam or be killed. In March 2006, the Afghan citizen Abdul Rahman was charged with apostasy and could have faced the death penalty for converting to Christianity. His case attracted much international attention with Western countries condemning Afghanistan for persecuting a convert. Charges against Abdul Rahman were dismissed on technical grounds (insanity) by the Afghan court after intervention by the president Hamid Karzai. He was released and left the country to find refuge in Italy. So much for making free choices in Islam.

Matt,
you seem biased toward history, Muslims ruled Spain for 800 years. They did not force people into their belief
otherwise Spain, Portugal and some other parts of Europe and all Latin America would have been Muslim. That is in contrast to what Catholics did. The Catholics when took over Spain made a black mark on history by giving two choice to Muslims and Jews living there for centuries, be Baptized or be killed. There are true stories that Muslims went underground to keep their faith from the terror with which the Popes ruled and imposed their belief upon people for five centuries.
In the Americas the Catholicism made way through the same tactics. Either eliminate a people if they resisted, or subjugate them through any means in order to be Baptized. So that's the reason you see natives either exterminated or Baptized with no choice of their own. It is written in history, if you care to read. I am not making this up. It continued to very recent times.

As far as you problem with hijab, it is simple, just like Allah gave us a choice to worship Him as our creator, or worship a man or a cow or fire or a statue of a living thing while guiding us that the only right worship is the worship of our maker our God. Everything else if we worship we will be wrong, and that He will punish us for our such wrong doing. (Worshiping anything other than Allah is a great wrong doing.) Similarly, if we see what Allah asks us to do in order to be a complete believer, yes we have a choice to fulfill it but by not obeying Allah do you think will make Him happy with us?
Can you be a basketball player or claim to be one, while not really playing it, not practicing it, not knowing its rule, but when someone asks you you say I am a basket ball player. Will the audience shower you with flowers or pellet you with tomatoes and eggs at a game you did not know or practiced? Will the team keep you?
The most important thing is that of course it is difficult in today's world as it was in yesterday's probably to fulfill all obligations, but intentionally and deliberately leaving any obligations will cost us dearly. For those who have intentions and they do try to fulfill them, but do fall short, for them God has good news,Forgiveness.
The only sin I know mentioned in the Quran and the Bible that God has stated that He will not forgie is blasphemy or shirk, of associating with God as God what is not God, or worshiping as God someone or something that is created by God. Do you follow that?
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 30 November 2012 at 6:46pm

Friendship, your anecdotal story about finding a drunk is nice.  Not sure what it has to do with Shari'a law.  I wasn't aware that the UK adhered to Shari'a.