CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES

Friendship,

   The only "labyrinth" here are your evasions and non-answers to my specific statements. You proceed from the notion that my religious beliefs are a "labyrinth" that needs to be "straightened" somehow, I assume this means that "labyrinth" is Judaism and/or Christianity, and will only be "straightened" by accepting Islam. The idea that the "creator has many faces and sides" is simply an attempt to rationalize beliefs that are not defensible from a scholarly point-of-view. God Himself is One and has no "faces and sides" such as those of pagan idols and revisionist beliefs that seek to portray Him as something other than the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. You, and some other, Muslims on this forum simply say or imply that "truth" is based on belief in Islam and any other belief is simply incorrect, based on their own faith, not an scholarly debate on the merits and discrepancies between the Old and New Testaments and the Qur'an.
   As I have said, I am content to recommend that anyone having religious questions as to Christianity and Islam should carefully read the Old and New Testaments and also the Qur'an and then make up their mind as to which "book" is the true message of God. Surely that is acceptable to you as a dispassionate contributor to this "forum?"

Larry
   

Edited by Larry - 05 March 2013 at 3:20pm

Greetings,

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that you "believe" in the Talmud. The Talmud is not the Torah or Old Testament, it contains the opinions of thousands of rabbis on a variety of subjects. Rabbinic tradition considers it second to the Torah, but it is not actual holy text. I think you are confusing it for the Torah.

I believe that Muhammad was an actual person who lived in 7th century Arabia and claimed to have received revelations from God through the angel Gabriel. I'm sorry but I do not believe that Muhammad was a true prophet of God, or that he was any kind of prophet whatever. The Biblical standard for a true prophet is one who makes specific prophecies that are later proved to be true. I have seen no evidence whatsoever that Muhammad ever made any specific prophecies at all. Likewise I do not believe that Allah is the same God Who is worshipped by Jews and Christians. Allah was a pre-Islamic pagan Arab god who was worshipped at the Kaaba, along with many other idols, including the "black stone." Every part of the Hajj in Mecca is pre-Islamic in origin. The running between the hills, stoning the devil, circumnambulating the Kaaba a certain number of times, kissing, touching or pointing at the "black stone," etc. How this can be interpreted as referring to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob I have no idea. Abraham was over a hundred years old when Isaac was born. Hagar and Ishmael were sent away and Abraham never saw them in person again, and he certainly didn't travel to Southern Arabia to build the original Kaaba with Ishmael, this is simply a later Islamic invention.

Jerusalem, the "third holiest city" to Muslims is never mentioned even once in the Qur'an. Jerusalem is mentioned 667 times in the Bible and was, and still is, the holiest city for Jews and Christians. If Muhammad was a true prophet, why did he never mention Jerusalem by name, nor did Gabriel reveal the name Jerusalem when he delivered his revelations from Allah? Ibn Taymiyya said that there "was no place in Jerusalem that one could call sacred and the same holds true for the tombs of Hebron." The Qur'an itself is difficult to read, repeating itself over and over and gives conflicting views of how the "people's of the book" are to be seen and treated by Muslims. The Old and New Testaments compliment each other to an amazing degree, which is even more surprising when it is considered that the Old and New Testaments were written at different times in history and by at least 66 diferent authors. In contrast, the Qur'an, which is said to be the revealed truth of Allah through Gabriel to Muhammad, has many inconsistencies and discrepancies from both the Old and New Testaments, something you would not expect for a "holy" book that was supposedly in the same line of prophecy as the Old and New Testaments. The only way these discrepancies can be explained from an Islamic viewpoint is that the Jews and Christians "corrupted" their own holy texts. But Muslims can never seem to show just what parts of the Bible are true and which specific verses are "corrupted" text. It is simply said that any part of the Bible that supports the Qur'anic teachings is true and any that contradict the Qur'an are "corrupted" texts. I don't say that Muslims worship a false God or that Islam is not a true religion of God. My personal beliefs are that Allah is NOT the God of the Jews and Christians, Muhammad was not a true prophet of God and that Islam is not a true "Abrahamic" religion that is a continuation of the line of prophecy and content of the Old and New Testaments.

As you said, no one can force me to believe anything, my beliefs are just that, my personal beliefs. Using the Qur'an to prove the truth and accuracy of the Qur'an is not a methodology that I would accept, how could it say anything else? It would be like me trying to convince you that jesus Christ is the Son of God using the New Testament as proof? If you think I am rejecting the "true" religion and will certainly go to hell for it is fine, you are entitled to your beliefs, as I am for mine. As far as "encouraging those who know nothing of Islam from unexpalined texts," I have no idea of what you mean. I would simply say to a person who knows nothing of the Bible or the Qur'an that they should read the Old and New Testaments and the Qur'an and make their minds up after reading all three texts. The Qur'an says to kill your enemies who persecute you but Jesus Christ taught us to love our enemies and do good to those who persecute us.

My statement of belief is this:

"I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth: And in Jesus Christ His only Son our Lord: who was conceieved by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary: suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell: the third day He rose again from the dead: He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty: from there he shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit: the holy catholic (meaning "universal") Church: the communion of saints: the forgiveness of sins: the resurrection of the body: and the life everlasting."

That's about all I can say about my personal beliefs as a Christian. And you have every right to believe that Islam and the Qur'an are the true religion. No one here, you or I, is going to change their religious viewpoints, so the best thing is to say that I hope your religion brings you as much comfort and spiritual guidance as mine does for me.

Peace

Edited by Larry - 01 March 2013 at 3:01am

Friendship,

   You say it is not wise and advisable to read the Qur'an and then reject it. But I have read the Qur'an and I found it repetitious, the same things being said over and over, the discrepancies in it concerning how the "Peoples of the Book" are to be seen and treated by Muslims is very apparent. I'm not slamming the Qur'an, I am simply saying what I felt after reading the entire book. It has no coherent form, no linear quality of earliest to latest, some of the revelations that concerned the personal life of Muhammad seemed a little too convenient when they make an exception for Muhammad, as in the matter of Aisha, the daughter of the companion Abu Bakr, for example. I don't reject it, I simply do not believe that it is truly from God Himself, revealed through Gabriel.
   You say "there was no Messenger or Prophet sent a body called "Christians." How you came up with that I have no idea. It was the coming of Jesus Christ Himself that instituted the religion called after Him, Christianity. There could be no "Christianity" until after the birth, life, death and ressurection of Jesus Christ, He is Christianity. Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, prophesied by the Hebrew prophets such as Isaiah, and is literally the Son of God. I know you can't accept the idea that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all of the same substance, and are not three separate "deities."
   George Bush and Tony Blair did not make war against the "Arabs," they made war against seriously deluded supposed "Muslims" such as Al Qaeda and the Taliban, who harbored Osama bin Laden after the terrorist attacks in New York, Washington and Flight 93. It was sheer and naked murder of 3,000 innocent people who did no more than show up for work, or take a scheduled flight, on that hideous day. The Americans in Afghanistan aren't making war against "Arabs" or "Muslims," they are making war, along with the Afghan government, on terrorists who kill many more Muslims than they do Americans or other coalition troops. For you to say that "Al-Qaeda, Taliban and Boko Haram is the doing of the Western civilization and their cohorts in the Muslim world," is obscene it it's ignorance and naievete. It is Al Qaeda, the Taliban and Boko Haram that are causing death and destruction to Muslims every day. Just look at Pakistan, the constant bombings and murders of innocent Muslims by these God-forsaken monsters is evidently something that you find admirable. Boko Haram kills foreign doctors who come to Mali to innoculate the children against polio, Mali being one of the very few countries where polio still exists. It is their ignorance and uncivilized mindlessness that teaches that Western medicine is somehow bad for Muslim children. It is obscene that children will continue to be paralyzed by this preventable disease because of the st**idity and gross ignorance of "Boko Haram," a ridiculous organization that deserves to be eliminated from the earth.
   It is the constant warfare between Sunni and Shiite Muslims that is tearing the "Arabic" and Iranian countries apart. Every day I look at the news from the Middle East and it is always the same, ruthless, pitiless terror and murder of innocent Muslims in marketplaces, or even in religious processions and gatherings, mostly of Shiites. "Suicide bombers" who chant "Allahu Akbar" as they senselessly murder other Muslims, is that something that the "West" inflicted on the Muslim world? Islam needs to get it's house in order before it accuses "Western Christian civilization" of creating this worldwide fundamentalist terrorism by Al Qaeda, the Taliban and Boko haram, among others.
   As to whether God told "Moses" about Muhammad makes no difference. Moses doesn't name all the other Hebrew prophets, most of which lived long after Moses died. The fact is that the Hebrew Torah and Christian New Testament reveal the names of every single prophet of God, but strangely does not reveal the name of Muhammad, the supposed "Seal of the Prophets." That is because Muhammad lived long after the Torah was written as well as the New Testament. That is why I cannot believe that Muhammad was truly a prophet, especially since the meaning of the word prophet is someones who prophsises future events that then take place, just as prophesied. I have never seen even one prophecy made by Muhammad, let alone any that were later proved to be accurate, the Biblical standard for a prophet of God.
   You say that Muhammad "banished" the Qurayza, I believe there were 800 Jewish men and boys of the Qurayza tribe that were murdered on the orders of Muhammad, because they did not support him in battle.
   The "Arabic language" has nothing to do with the Talmud, period. And the idea that by reciting the Qur'an in Arabic, even if the reciter does not understand the words he is speaking, is almost to give the Qur'an the status of something that is holy unto itself, the "magic" being in the language and not what is being said by non-Muslim speakers. This seems to be the definition of "shirk," along with things as the Tomb of Muhammad, the Black Stone and even the Kaaba itself, objects or places that inspire veneration of anything other than Allah.
   Bud, I am not angry or upset with you as a person, but I do feel that I have the right and freedom to express my opinions just as you do. You "reject" as a "fairy tale" bedrock Christian beliefs and practices. I have no problem with that, it's what you believe.
   That is what makes forums like this valuable. I can respect you as a person without necessarily agreeing with you on your beliefs and ideas. I have strong opinions too, and I'm not shy about saying so, but that is the way I am.

Hope you are well and content,

Larry

Friendship,

   The names of Shu'aib, Salih, Zulqarnain and Luqman, are not mentioned in the Jewish Bible because they are ARABIC names of people mentioned in the Qur'an but completely absent from the Torah or Jewish Bible.

   Salih (Arabic "Pious") is an Arabic prophet of ancient Arabia, mentioned in the Qur'an but not named anywhere in the Jewish Bible. Shu'aib is sometimes equated to "Shelah" of the Hebrew Bible, but there is virtually nothing in common between the two. Shu'aib is linked to the ancient Arabic story of the "She Camel."

   Shu'aib (Arabic) is absent from the Jewish tradition. He is sometimes identified with the Biblical Midian priest, Jethro, by Muslims, but this view is rejected by virtually all modern scholars, as there is no independent (except in the Qur'an) solid historical grounding for this belief.

   Zulqarnain (Arabic) Is also never named in the Hebrew Bible. The Qur'an says that Zulqarnain is a historical figure. Yusuf Ali states that Zulqarnain is Alexander the Great, but there is absolutely no scholarly basis for this belief at all.

   Luqman (Arabic) unknown to the Jewish Bible, was supposedly a wise man for whom the 31st Surah of Luqman is named. He is supposedly dated to 1100 B.C. and was believed to be from Africa.

   It is no wonder that none of these Arabic names are mentioned in the Hebrew Bible. You say that they are not named in the Bible because they were prophets who were not from the children of Jacob. This makes absolutely no sense. If being from the "Children of Jacob" is a Biblical standard for naming prophets, then ANY prophet not from Jacob's lineage would not be named in the Bible.

   The surprising statement of yours that "The Israelites are mentioned (in the Qur'an) because they were the civilization (human beings) chosen by the Creator of the heavens and the earth to teach to human beings His Laws and what is required from them.

   Yet Muslim believe that this civilization that was "CHOSEN BY THE CREATOR OF THE HEAVENS AND EARTH TO TEACH TO HUMAN BEINGS HIS LAWS..." has corrupted these very same Laws of God and changed the Hebrew Bible from what was originally given to them by God Himself. I'm not sure why God, Who knows and sees everything, didn't forsee that the Jews (and later Christians) would corrupt His own messages to humanity.

   The "reason" that the Hebrew and Christian Bibles, in Muslim belief, must have been "corrupted" by the Jews and Christians themselves, was because of the discrepancies and errors between these two "Testaments" of God and the Qur'an. The Qur'an is the ONLY "final testament" that does not fit together with the original Old and New Testaments.

    This constant need to explain WHY there are vast differences between the Old and New Testaments and the Qur'an, are a regular feature of many Muslim postings.

   I think you would get a negative response from many Muslims if you told them that they were all "spiritual" Israelites.

   And lastly, it is shocking that the Hebrew Bible never specifically mentions the ACTUAL name of Muhammad, the final "seal" of the Jewish Biblical prophets. He is the ONLY prophet who is not specifically named, a complete and total departure from Biblical tradition. But I suppose the Jews "corrupted" the name of Muhammad out of their own Bible, a "prophet" sent to them by God Himself.

Larry

Edited by Larry - 23 February 2013 at 1:22pm