Apostacy and few other issues

bunter wrote: honeto wrote: You blame that I obey Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) as I obey God Almighty. Wrong, I do not. I obey God Almighty as God Almighty and I obey prophet Mohammed (pbuh) as prophet Mohammed (pbuh). And I obey my mother as my mother. So there is a distinction. But the Quran does not say does it 'obey Allah and your mother'?

The Quran has refrained from using the word Father or Mother or Son.If you look at the abuse of these words in the Bible where you have Mary construed as the Mother of God(sic) then you have Jesus as the Son of God(sic) then you have God as the father all these words have been done away with in the Quran.

bunter wrote: honeto wrote: You blame that I obey Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) as I obey God Almighty. Wrong, I do not. I obey God Almighty as God Almighty and I obey prophet Mohammed (pbuh) as prophet Mohammed (pbuh). And I obey my mother as my mother. So there is a distinction. But the Quran does not say does it 'obey Allah and your mother'?

bunter,
your argument is silly, losing and unreal. In various levels we all obey various entities. As law abiding citizens we obey the law of our countries and it protects us. We obey our parents and elders. Don't tell me that you never obeyed your mother or your father. It is natural, Allah tells us in the Quran that only time we should not obey them is if they ask us to worship anyone other than God.
31:15 (Y. Ali) "But if they (your parents) strive to make thee join in worship with Me things of which thou hast no knowledge, obey them not; yet bear them company in this life with justice (and consideration), and follow the way of those who turn to me (in love): in the end the return of you all is to Me, and I will tell you the truth (and meaning) of all that ye did."

And it seems that you missed this verse in your own book that you believe to be true, at least believe it. It talks about obeying to your parents and just look at the punishment in it for disobeying:
Deut.21:18 "If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, �This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.� 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid."

And Ron,
I am not going to argue with you on such a simple matter as role of a teacher. Teachers would not be needed if we all could learn only from the books alone. Everyone in sound mind will not think of learning without teachers. In today's economy may be it's a good idea to eliminate teachers but only good for the economy and not for the future. Teachers play an important role in a student's learning ability and that was my simple point. In matter of religion it matters even more because religion is more important to many of us then what we learn in school.
And see, for a man of belief like myself, I never feel over burdened like you when it comes to find the details of how our teacher, our prophet did certain things that are part of daily life. How did he fulfill his obligations to his maker and how did he fulfill his obligations toward others, simple as that. As in any trade, people follow an example of someone who once was a legend in that field, as a Muslim my only goal is to follow that example that was a guiding light and a living example of how a true believer should be. And for each time there was such an example and a teacher like Jesus, like Moses, like Abraham and so on, all servants of Allah. For our times it is Prophet Mohammed may Allah's Peace be upon them All.


Hasan

Edited by honeto - 19 September 2012 at 12:20pm

honeto wrote: You blame that I obey Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) as I obey God Almighty. Wrong, I do not. I obey God Almighty as God Almighty and I obey prophet Mohammed (pbuh) as prophet Mohammed (pbuh). And I obey my mother as my mother. So there is a distinction.

Saying it does not make it so.  In practical terms, what is the distinction?  The only clear difference I can see is that Muslims normally don't directly address Muhammad in their prayers, but it seems that even that isn't always the case.

Ron Webb wrote: honeto wrote: Bunter, I am not sure if you understand, what it means to obey the prophet and obey God. Prophets and apostles brought word of God that had to be obeyed. Prophets never claimed to be God, nor to be worshiped like God. So I am puzzled at your lack of differentiation of the two. Just as we are puzzled by your lack of differentiation.� You obey Muhammad, just as you would obey Allah.� You treat every authentic word and action of Muhammad as permanent doctrine, just as you do with Allah.� You consider it sacrilege to insult Muhammad, just as you would Allah.� You attribute to Muhammad qualities of wisdom, virtue, stamina, etc., which if not equal to Allah are certainly beyond those of mortals. So aside from simply declaring that Muhammad is not a partner of Allah, in what practical sense do you believe or behave any differently than if he were? Muslims, through their prophet are told to not worship anything or anyone other than God. Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) was a living example of that command as all prophets were to live an example of what was preached through them, and thus not worshiping anything or anyone other than God by Muslims is following the example of their prophet. Where is blasphemy there, can you point out? The blasphemy is in writing down the Hadith of the prophet, despite having been specifically told not to do so, and in treating those sayings as if they had the same authority as Allah's words in the Quran.� The Hadith were specific guidance for a specific people and a specific time.� They were never meant to be preserved forever.

Ron,
sorry to say but you are absolutely wrong about those perceptions about me.

You blame that I obey Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) as I obey God Almighty. Wrong, I do not. I obey God Almighty as God Almighty and I obey prophet Mohammed (pbuh) as prophet Mohammed (pbuh). And I obey my mother as my mother. So there is a distinction.
I do not equate the words of the Quran as the words of the Hadith. The Quran is directly from God Almighty, while the Hadiths are words of men and must be verified.
I love God Almighty as God Almighty, and I love the Prophet as the Prophet.
I certainly believe that it was for his great qualities that Mohammed (pbuh) was chosen to be a teacher, to be a guide, to be a prophet to mankind. Is he equal to God, no Muslim will commit such blasphemy, there is none that equals God. Do I respect and love him more than any other human, you bet, followed by all the other prophets and then my love ones.
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 17 September 2012 at 1:22pm