Are supporters ofextremists true Muslims? |
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Whisper
Senior Member Male Joined: 25 July 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4752 |
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How do you feel when i say this... when the palestinians got to know what the jews went through in WW2 could they not be a little bit understanding instead of trying to expel them(the new comers of old) from their land which was conquered by Brittain and given to them and rather welcome them and try to work with them to achieve a healthy society in which they both would live in peace? They would have lived together in peace very happily BUT the Brits needed to create a dispute in the land as usual for their Divide n Rule plan. They should live together and very soon they will - when the Anglo-American hold on the Mid East loosens. |
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Community
Guest Group Joined: 19 May 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1135 |
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How do you feel when i say this... when the palestinians got to know what the jews went through in WW2 could they not be a little bit understanding instead of trying to expel them(the new comers of old) from their land which was conquered by Brittain and given to them and rather welcome them and try to work with them to achieve a healthy society in which they both would live in peace? I mean the jews went through a serious blow...was that not a time of reconciliation? was it not the anger they met from the palestinians when they went into the holy land which made the jews on their turn "very upset" at the reaction they received? i am thinking in ways like the horrors of WW2, the pain and fear the jews went through and then coming to the holy land for safety and thinking "look what we went through and now look at how these people receive us, their hate towards us, yes we come to this land which is ours also and they want us out of here...into the sea or somewhere else...this is our land and these arabs can go away and we will make them go away and teach them a lesson in being unwanted." Listen, i think when a whole people went through an experience like the jews did in WW2, and they came to the land with which they have a historical connection, the least one living in such a country could do as a decent human being is let them stay there and not try to force them out, afterall they came to that land because they seek a safe place, one who submits for the sake of peace(a muslim) should provide a safe place for one who is seeking safety, and what does it matter if they set up a democratic government in which everyone gets elected and in which israeli arabs also are part of? people should help eachother upon what is good and not upon hostility and hatred. |
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b95000
Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1328 |
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B you said: >>>>That said, what about those so-called Muslims who
defend such killers of innocent people - in the name of Allah, Islam,
the Palestinian Cause, the Muslim world or fill in the blank - how do
we best oppose them or bring the truth to them or convert them to
repentence?<<<< Now you
mentioned something there, you mentioned the Palestinian cause. Now
that is a sensitive issue that needs to be analyzed sensitively. B: This is no doubt true. Understand that
the Palestinians there are being annexed from their land from Jews who
after post WW2 had taken migrated to the Holy land post WW2. Now
because Europe wouldn't take such a large population it was discussed
that they would migrate to the Palestinian lands of course under the
premise that that is their land decreed by God. B:
First of all, do you disagree that the Jewish people have some historic
claim to Jerusalem and Bethlehem, et al? Secondly, I think the
Jews wanted to come here out of Europe after they were slaughtered
there by the MILLIONS. You understand that piece of the puzzle
too, no doubt. So then the questions are, should these suffering
people be allowed to come to this land on the eastern shore of the
Mediterranean sea? And, once they did, did they run roughshod or
did the leadership in these nations run roughshod over the legitimate
rights and needs of the Palestinian people? I
would answer the first question, yes, they should have been allowed to
come and the second, yes, to some degree the rights of Palestinians
were pushed aside...there needed to be a better solutions arived at
and, no doubt, as it is clear, the Palestinians were made to feel, even
if such a result were not intended, they were made to feel as second
class citizens. Now some Palestinians have reacted to this by
claiming that Israel has no right to exist...such cannot be a
legitimate position when you view the history of Israel and the
Jews. In fact, the problem was how the Jews came back. So
we get into these historic reviews about what happened to whom, when
and what belongs to whom, when. To some degree, it must be very
clear to all observers now - the world messed up with HOW the Jews were
to be allowed back into their historic homeland. But
do you debate whether they should have been allowed to come back to
their historic homeland? Are you saying they should have stayed
put - in the killing field of Europe? Now B you question where the
hatred of the people come from. Now if you were annexed from your
historic land what would you do? You cannot think how you would think
now because you are not in the situation but if you think good you'd
probably say the first thing you'd feel is anger. Now go farther you'll
have resentment, and then farther you'll get hatred and then farther
you'll get violent. B: Here we're
getting to the nub of an important question. Is terrorism and
murder justified against innocent people for any reason? We must
answer this question. Now, it is my take on the situation in
Israel/Palestine that, to some degree, many Palestinians do not
consider any Jew innocent. Isn't that true? If one believed
like that - that would open up the legitimacy - at least in your own
mind and in the mind of your supporters - to kill and slaughter people,
as much as possible even, even to kill their children because, 'none
are innocent.' But I don't subscribe to such extremist sentiment
and I don't think you nor many Muslims do - but enough do ('never
recognize Israel,' 'death to Israel,' whathave you) that it is very
troubling and has driven many homicide bombers to kill as many Jewish
civilians as possible - even children.. How
can we have come to such a place when the children, even of
monotheists, are no longer seen as human? If even the kafir's
children are human (of course) what about those people of the Book and
their children? How could we have come to this? Now as I mentioned before the struggle of a people tend sto boil over with emotion first and then dialogue second. B:
Those reasonable people among us must question this order of
things...we must approach results with the long term in mind and with
hour children and peace and their peace in our hearts..otherwise we're
condemned to this heinous current pattern of things...do we really want
that? You ask how one converts from
that type of behavior to compassion. In some situations you cannot
because hatred can consume a human's rational being. B:
Oh! This is soo hopeless. People will live up to the
standards and examples set for them..They will follow good and evil
examples...Look at what Ghandi did for the Indians and what King did
for African Americans..living up to the example set, means setting good
examples must precede. This is where the hugely difficult work
must be done. Who will set this example and are they willing to
be killed by cowards to change the world? Sometimes that is what
it takes.. The only thing left is to
remedy the illness through examples in other cases. However when you
see Muslims support the Palestinians (in this case the extremist) its
not those who take the innocent lives, B: But by default - IT IS. Muslims support the Palestinians constant struggle to gain a statehood and an identity. B:
Yes, that is also true...but one cannot justify the murder of innocents
for the sake of a greater cause...there is no greater cause than to
protect the weak and the innocent. THERE IS NO GREATER CAUSE. B: I completely agree... Edited by b95000 |
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Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. |
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Israfil
Senior Member Joined: 08 September 2003 Status: Offline Points: 3984 |
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B you said: >>>>That said, what about those so-called Muslims who defend such killers of innocent people - in the name of Allah, Islam, the Palestinian Cause, the Muslim world or fill in the blank - how do we best oppose them or bring the truth to them or convert them to repentence?<<<< Now you mentioned something there, you mentioned the Palestinian cause. Now that is a sensitive issue that needs to be analyzed sensitively. Understand that the Palestinians there are being annexed from their land from Jews who after post WW2 had taken migrated to the Holy land post WW2. Now because Europe wouldn't take such a large population it was discussed that they would migrate to the Palestinian lands of course under the premise that that is their land decreed by God. Now B you question where the hatred of the people come from. Now if you were annexed from your historic land what would you do? You cannot think how you would think now because you are not in the situation but if you think good you'd probably say the first thing you'd feel is anger. Now go farther you'll have resentment, and then farther you'll get hatred and then farther you'll get violent. Now as I mentioned before the struggle of a people tend sto boil over with emotion first and then dialogue second. You ask how one converts from that type of behavior to compassion. In some situations you cannot because hatred can consume a human's rational being. The only thing left is to remedy the illness through examples in other cases. However when you see Muslims support the Palestinians (in this case the extremist) its not those who take the innocent lives, Muslims support the Palestinians constant struggle to gain a statehood and an identity. The struggle that the Palestinians go through is an example on how the world today is still controlled by those who are arrogant. Again the best way to defeat evil is with goodness and to do so is through action and example. |
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b95000
Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1328 |
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[moderator edited]
The truth hurts. Solutions are difficult. Name calling and insults are easy and absolutely useless. Sasha, you truly take the path of LEAST RESISTANCE, the easy road and not the one that leads to benefit for the communities of the world, and in such is found your true character..to wit: "Aye, thou dost protesteth too much methinks...and there's the rub!" For in your mind, you know all that there is to know, and you know 'anyone that's worth knowing.' A shame that.. Edited by rami |
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Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. |
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b95000
Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1328 |
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That said, what about those so-called Muslims who defend such killers of innocent people - in the name of Allah, Islam, the Palestinian Cause, the Muslim world or fill in the blank - how do we best oppose them or bring the truth to them or convert them to repentence? |
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Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. |
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Whisper
Senior Member Male Joined: 25 July 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4752 |
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[moderator edited]
Edited by rami |
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Israfil
Senior Member Joined: 08 September 2003 Status: Offline Points: 3984 |
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The answer to your question is no not a true Muslim. Muslim here say the excommunication of a person from the Muslim community is when he/she commits shirk. I tend to disagree. Because if one does something out of extremity and out of Islamic reason such as murder or the killing of innocence for selfish gains and does notrepent to me is not a member of the Muslim community. Now for those who do kill out of selfish emotion and repents and is sincere then I personally wouldn't excommunicate them. But those who do things above the laws of the Qur'an disregarding them are not members of my community.
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