I am not a member of any religion

Ambrosia wrote: Many people have been quoting the Quran out of context in an effort to show that Islam promotes violence. A recent op-ed piece by Cal Thomas is a high profile example. This is pure nonsense. Thomas and others doing this are taking selected passages and reading them completely out of context to support whatever argument they wish to make. I can do the same thing with the Bible.

I don't necessarily agree that "islam" promotes violence, islam is a name......names can't do any such thing.

But it is clear that Mohammed and quran promote violence and many other offensive things.......for example........

Quran:

[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

Dear Ambrosia,
Would you kindly explain in what context this direction to kill is to be?

Ambrosia wrote: Here are some choice passages from the KJV Bible which when read in isolation makes the Bible appear to be a primer for evil: 1) In Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it's OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens. 2) In Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants. 3) In Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war. 4) In Numbers 31, the Lord tells Moses to kill all the Midianites, sparing only the virgins. 5) In Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently. 6) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law. 7) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.

The first few of your examples, numvered 1 - 5 inclusive are from the Torah (aka Old Testiment) much like Quran they promote violence, much of which is acknowledged by Mohammed as valid "word" of god, prior to "revelation' of Quran, very similar in content and consistent with Quran.

The last 2 examples, (6) and (7) are from Gospels found in what is termed as New Testiment.

Dealing with your item (6) first........

Here is Mark 7:9 with the preceeding verses, starting from the beginning of the chapter.

Mark 7:1-9

Mark 7

Clean and Unclean

    ⁶He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you   hypocrites; as it is written:
   " 'These people honor me with their lips,
      but their hearts are far from me.
    ⁷They worship me in vain;
      their teachings are but rules taught by men.'^{[b]
     8}You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."
     ⁹And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!"
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Ambrosia,
There is NOTHING said in these verses that even alludes to "Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law."

Would you care to explain just what you are getting at?........have you posted the wrong reference?.......it simply does not say what you have alleged that it says.
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You have referred also to another piece from Gospels...........alleging........

Ambrosia wrote: In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.

Dear Ambrosia,

Again you have made a mistake........if you read Luke 19 you will clearly see that the person who orders to killed anyone who does not accept a person as a ruler, is a man in a STORY (parable) that Jesus was telling.

You see it was a man in the story that Jesus was describing in a parable that asked for people to be killed......it was not Jesus who asked for people to be killed.

Here is all of Luke 19, so you can read it again and you will see the mistake you have made.

I will place in parenthesis ( ) who is speaking to make it clear for you.

The Parable of the Ten Minas    

¹¹While they were listening to this, he (Jesus) went on to tell them a parable, because he (Jesus) was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once.

¹²He (Jesus) said: "A man (the man who the story is about) of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself  (the man who the story is about) appointed king and then to return.

¹³So he (the man who the story is about) called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.^[a]'Put this money to work,' he said, (the man who the story is about) 'until I come back.'

¹⁴"But his (the man who the story is about) subjects hated him (the man who the story is about) and sent a delegation after him (the man who the story is about) to say, 'We don't want this man (the man who the story is about) to be our king.'

¹⁵"He (the man who the story is about) was made king, however, and returned home. Then he (the man who the story is about) sent for the servants to whom he (the man who the story is about) had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.

¹⁶"The first one came and said, 'Sir, (to the man who the story is about) your mina has earned ten more.'

¹⁷" 'Well done, my good servant!' his master (the man who the story is about) replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.'

¹⁸"The second came and said, 'Sir, (to the man who the story is about) your mina has earned five more.'

¹⁹"His master (the man who the story is about) answered, 'You take charge of five cities.'

²⁰"Then another servant came and said, 'Sir, (to the man who the story is about) here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth.

²¹I was afraid of you,(to the man who the story is about)  because you are a hard man. (the man who the story is about) You (the man who the story is about) take out what you (the man who the story is about) did not put in and reap what you (the man who the story is about) did not sow.'

²²"His master replied, (the man who the story is about) 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man,(the man who the story is about) taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow?

²³Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I (the man who the story is about) came back, I (the man who the story is about) could have collected it with interest?'

²⁴"Then he (the man who the story is about) said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.'

²⁵" 'Sir,' they said, 'he already has ten!'

²⁶"He (the man who the story is about) replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away.

²⁷But those enemies of mine (the man who the story is about) who did not want me (the man who the story is about) to be king over them�bring them here and kill them in front of me."(the man who the story is about)

I got another answer, check it out-Dayem

 

 

But if they turn away, catch them and slaughter them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks." (4:89)

 4:88-91 Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way. They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): so take not friends from their ranks until they forsake the domain of evil in the way of God (from what is forbidden). But if they revert to [open] enmity, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (Of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If God had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then God hath opened no way for you (to war against them). Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto; if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them; in their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them

So in the same manner as the first verse, this verse also only commands Muslims to fight those who practice oppression or persecution, or attack the Muslims. And in the event of a battle, the same laws of war are in place and a Muslim who transgresses limits should prepare for the punishment of God. In response to a question on verses 4:88-89, Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi quotes the verses in their full context and then asks the following:

Now tell me honestly, do these verses give a free permission to kill any one anywhere? These verses were revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), at the time when Muslims were attacked by the non-Muslims of Makkah on a regular basis. They were frightening the Muslim community of Madinah. One may say using the contemporary jargon that there were constant terrorist attacks on Madinah and in this situation Muslims were given permission to fight back the �terrorist�. These verses are not a permission for �terrorism� but they are a warning against the �terrorists.� But even in these warnings you can see how much restraint and care is emphasized. (SOURCE, emphasis added)

6:151 Take not life, which God hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom. 17:33 Nor take life, which God has made sacred, except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas(retribution) or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the law) 5:32...if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people

So the Qur'an makes it very clear that Muslims cannot initiate an attack against others, unless there is an immediate threat of being attacked. The context of the quoted verses applies only to situations where the oppressors are killing Muslims. In this case, they have a right to defend themselves and others, especially the weak and oppressed.

AhmadJoyia wrote: I think bro Jazz, your source of info viz a viz your source of references are baised and are not independent at the least. If you happen to be a nuetral observer, as you claims to be, then it would be more prudent to present the views of the both sides. This is glaringly revealing from your source of reference that you chose to read about "badr". Kindly read the chapter 4 of Quran the same way as you used to explain the verses from the Bible and surely you should find the right context in which these verses must be read and understood. Here is the prologue of the verses that you refered in chapter 4, but a little before: ' 74. Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value). 75. And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!" 76. Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan. 77. Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who were told to hold back their hands (from fight) but establish regular prayers and spend in regular charity? When (at length) the order for fighting was issued to them, behold! a section of them feared men as - or even more than - they should have feared Allah. They said: "Our Lord! Why hast Thou ordered us to fight? Wouldst Thou not Grant us respite to our (natural) term, near (enough)?" Say: "Short is the enjoyment of this world: the Hereafter is the best for those who do right: Never will ye be dealt with unjustly in the very least! These verses does reveal the fact that the fight was ordered against the aggressors.

Hi AhmadJoyia,

What aggressors?............there is no mention of aggressors in these ayats.

It sems to me to be an appeal to Mohammed's followers to fight, citing hypotheticals........the closest that any of these ayats comes to even suggesting an actual aggressor is...."why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?"...........note the "oppressed" is in parenthisis, and yest it still doesn't indicate any aggressors of any sort.

On another point........why would an almighty God, creator of the entire universe and all that it contains, need or depend on mere men to fight in his "cause"?

Is not God capable?.......what did God do before he created man?........was God lesser before man got created?.....did God create man because he needed help?

By saying that God needs the efforts of men, is to say that God is not capable.....can you not see a denial of God's capacity, a suggestion that God needs help that is asserted in these ayats?

Mohammed was inventing things when he claimed it was God's intentions to have people "fight in God's cause" to stir-up hatred and to invent an enemy for his followers, to justify in their minds violence against fellow humans, for the purpose of achieving his own personal aims.

Mohammed made it even more alluring to his followers and would-be followers to take-up arms and attack the neighbours (who did not believe HIM) by inventing God's sanctioning of slavery, looting, taking booty, theft, adultery and rape.........very appealing fringe-benefits indeed to the criminally minded.

The "unbelievers" were not unbelievers in God, they were unbelievers in Mohammed's claims of being chosen by God as a prophet...........why can't people see this or admit it?

Is it pride that stands in the way?......that people who have believed Mohammed's claims would be so embarrassed to admit they have been victims of a hoax.

What exactly would be the problem if is true that Mohammed was in fact a charlatan and a liar?

How would this in anyway change one's belief and faith in God?..............let's be completely honest here........what would really change?.......except for a few pagan-based Arab rituals and traditions, and parroting recitations in Arabic.