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Topic ClosedWas Islam spread by the sword?

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Hughes View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 March 2012 at 12:05pm
Originally posted by Chrysalis Chrysalis wrote:


Hughes: Unless you are planning on converting to Islam, and then leaving it... why are you so worried about Apostasy Laws in Islam?Fact remains, conversion rates into Islam are increasing - despite the bad rep Islam is receiving from hate-sites and hateful people. If your 'fears' had a basis, Islamic conversions would have been on a decline.




It is an interesting argument, however it is a different subject.

How is Islam spread?

Conversion rates into Islam are increasing.

The question isn't are the rates increasing or not, the question is how is Islam spread? And are people threatened with their life if they want to leave?

Edited by Hughes - 03 March 2012 at 12:06pm
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semar View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 March 2012 at 9:55pm
Salaam,
 
We should read history fairly.
 
Islam didn't spread by sword then or now, in Indonesia one of the most populous Muslim in there was no record of spreading Islam by sword. Before Islam came, Buddhism and Hinduism were the main religion there.
 
And the other hand Christianity brought to Indonesia, Latin America, Africa, Australia and other colonized country by gun (read: occupation). Nobody can denied that in the occupied land horrible story were daily stories. And in every colonized land, the controllers were the Christiano immigrant. The Christian occupier were prosper and the local were suffer.
 
In the case of Islam spreading, the controller were stay local, they converted to Islam. The local prosper and the immigrant assimilate with the local. Seer in Andalusia, India, Indonesia, Baghdad etc.
 
If you could tell me in which country Christian not via occupation in asia, latin america and africa. That's why we know of 3G terms during the colonization era:
Glory - occupation
Gold- take advantage of resources so they can earn
God- to spread Christianity.


Edited by semar - 04 March 2012 at 9:55pm
Salam/Peace,

Semar

"We are people who do not eat until we are hungry and do not eat to our fill." (Prophet Muhammad PBUH)

"1/3 of your stomach for food, 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 March 2012 at 2:35am
Originally posted by Hughes Hughes wrote:



The question isn't are the rates increasing or not, the question is how is Islam spread? And are people threatened with their life if they want to leave?


Ok, so tell me how is Islam being spread today in 2012? How was it spread in the past 10 years? Which wars took place in the past 10... 20...50...100 years that "helped"spread Islam?

If Islam were dependent on force (the sword) for its propagation, it would have ceased to spread after the Caliphate was overthrown and Colonialism took over most of the Muslim world.

Islam is not spreading because people are being forced to convert, it is spreading because it is a religion that makes sense to people and offers solutions to their spiritual and worldly problems. [and this is the same reason Islam spread in the past].





"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 March 2012 at 1:24pm
Quote

You think that quoting the prophecies of what God will do in the future is comparable to the three things I pointed out?


You did the same, pointing to an end of time prophecy of war between Jews and Muslim from Hadith. That was fine by you, I guess? My question, why be so hypocrite...Do you think that after having accepted Jesus (peace on him) as your savior, you get a free ticket to twist facts (and thereby commit sin)?

Quote 1) That the Quran states muslims should kill


In self Defensive wars, and Criminal who has murdered (and not been forgiven by victim family), who commits adultery, or spread corruption.
If you have a issue with wars then may I ask why your christian state constantly attacked and fought war, and not just turn the other cheek as Jesus (peace on him) advised?

Quote 2) That Muhammed killed


I answered your question, it was in the link. Since you copied pasted your query from an anti Islamic source, if you want I can paste the answer. But I doubt you will read it anyway,,if interested you can click on the link anytime you want. If you don't agree with the material in the link, then do post your query.

Quote 3) That Modern Islamic law references the prophet as justification for killing those who leave Islam.


Modern day christian state bomb innocents, and has legalized gay marriage. But that is against the Bible.
Doesn't matter what modern day Muslims do or don't do, Qur'an is pretty clear, Let there be no Compulsion in Religion.

Quote I noticed that you said nothing that refuted these three points that prove that Islam is indeed spread by the sword.


And I noticed you came with pre-conceived notions, and rather than discuss with open mind, you just referred to anti Islamic sites and refuse to accept any new source. Just repeating a rhetoric and calling it proof does no one any good. Unfortunately, you still continue to carry the biases about Islam; as they say, you can't see light with your eyes closed.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 March 2012 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by Dayem Dayem wrote:

Quote

You think that quoting the prophecies of what God will do in the future is comparable to the three things I pointed out?


You did the same, pointing to an end of time prophecy of war between Jews and Muslim from Hadith. That was fine by you, I guess? My question, why be so hypocrite...Do you think that after having accepted Jesus (peace on him) as your savior, you get a free ticket to twist facts (and thereby commit sin)?

Quote 1) That the Quran states muslims should kill


In self Defensive wars, and Criminal who has murdered (and not been forgiven by victim family), who commits adultery, or spread corruption.
If you have a issue with wars then may I ask why your christian state constantly attacked and fought war, and not just turn the other cheek as Jesus (peace on him) advised?

Quote 2) That Muhammed killed


I answered your question, it was in the link. Since you copied pasted your query from an anti Islamic source, if you want I can paste the answer. But I doubt you will read it anyway,,if interested you can click on the link anytime you want. If you don't agree with the material in the link, then do post your query.

Quote 3) That Modern Islamic law references the prophet as justification for killing those who leave Islam.


Modern day christian state bomb innocents, and has legalized gay marriage. But that is against the Bible.
Doesn't matter what modern day Muslims do or don't do, Qur'an is pretty clear, Let there be no Compulsion in Religion.

Quote I noticed that you said nothing that refuted these three points that prove that Islam is indeed spread by the sword.


And I noticed you came with pre-conceived notions, and rather than discuss with open mind, you just referred to anti Islamic sites and refuse to accept any new source. Just repeating a rhetoric and calling it proof does no one any good. Unfortunately, you still continue to carry the biases about Islam; as they say, you can't see light with your eyes closed.


I have one question for you. Do you believe your prophet said, 'Slay those who change their din [religion]'?

If so, what sort of self-defense is this supposed to be, since he only killed people for self-defense, or a crime, right?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 March 2012 at 8:59am
Quote I have one question for you. Do you believe your prophet said, 'Slay those who change their din [religion]'?

If so, what sort of self-defense is this supposed to be, since he only killed people for self-defense, or a crime, right?


All right Hughes, let me try again. Since you rely on anti Islamic sites for your knowledge, what you need to realize is that these sites often quotes out of context to butter there points. Pay attention and I will try to show how they do it, insha Allah.

The Hadith in question is "�The blood of a Muslim, who confesses that there is no God but God and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: (1) In penalty for murder, (2) a married person who commits adultery and (3) the one who reverts from Islam (apostates) and leaves the community.� (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 12, Book ad-Diyat, Number 6878, p.209)

You see that the above hadith clearly mentions "who leaves the community" to be killed, this basically mean a apostates who leaves Islam and joins enemy camp or high treason, (at that time the pagans of Mecca who were at war with Muslims)

Based on this we can say a Muslim could be killed only for (1) murder, (2) adultery, and (3) apostasy combined with �leav[ing] the community. As for peaceful apostates, killing is NOT prescribed.

To further my claim, here is another hadith:
�The blood of a Muslim, who confesses that none has the right to be worshiped but God and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: (1) a married person who commits adultery; he is to be stoned and (2) a man who went out FIGHTING against God and His Messenger; he is to be killed or crucified or exiled from the land and (3) a man who murders another person; he is to be killed on account of it.� (Sunan Abu Dawud, Vol. 4, Number 4353, p. 126)

Quran mentions something similar "�The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: this is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.� (Quran, 5:33)

Notice how similar the above verse is to the Hadith mentioned in Sunan Abu Dawud (above). The Hadith mentions the one �who went out fighting against God and His Messenger� whilst the Quran says �those who wage war against God and His Apostle,� and the punishment for such is also the same in both: �killed or crucified or exiled from the land.� This proves that capital punishment is NOT meant for peaceful apostates, since hadith clearly mentions three kind of crimes for death penalty, and peaceful apostate who do not wage a war against Muslims would be fourth-not-found-in-Hadith kind!

Here are the circumstances in which these hadiths originated. the Muslims of the city of Medina were under attack by the Quraish �idolaters� of Mecca (which at that time was predominantly non-Muslim). Many of the Muslims in Medina were emigrants from Mecca, who had converted to Islam. Do you see now why religion and national identity was fused at the hip back then? If you were a Meccan who converted from paganism to Islam, you�d be persecuted or even killed by your former co-religionists. So those who converted to Islam would �leave the community� of Mecca to join Medina.
The Meccans reacted harshly to this new religion of Islam and desired to wipe it off the map. They gathered armies and marched towards the fledgling Islamic city-state. Naturally, since the converts to Islam came from pagan families, such battles between Mecca and Medina would result in brother being pitted against brother, and father against son. Some of the newly converted Muslims naturally felt uncomfortable having to fight their families, and therefore would apostatize to the side of the idolatrous Meccans. Others were simply weak in faith and felt overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of the invaders, so they defected to the pagan army.
More insidiously, there were some in Medina who conspired with the people of Mecca to betray the Muslims in battle. They hatched a plan that they would �convert� to Islam to join the forces of Medina, only to apostatize and abandon the Muslims in the thick of things, in order to destroy the morale of the Muslim army. The Quran says of this:
�A section of the People of the Book say: �Believe in the morning what is revealed to those who believe, and reject it at the end of the day, perchance they may themselves turn back.� (Quran, 3:72)

It was in this particular situation that the Hadiths about killing �apostates� who �leave the community� and �wage war against God and His Messenger� were said. �Leaving the community� is a reference to leaving the community of Medina to join the invaders. Therefore, they reason, it was not merely �peaceful apostasy� which is to be punished, but rather high treason, i.e. trying to destroy the Islamic state�s army. It was a specific plot of the unbelievers to convert to Islam in order to mass apostatize and defect to the pagan side to destroy the Muslims.
One can see then how apostasy and defection are linked; back then, there was a pagan army and a Muslim army. If you were pagan, you fought for the pagan army. If you were Muslim, you fought for the Muslim army. If you converted from one to the other, then you�d likely abandon one army and defect to the other. Hence the phrase �the one who reverts from Islam (apostates) and leaves the community.

But Hadiths are secondary source of Information for Muslims. We believe literally the laws in Qur'an, let us see what Qur'an has to say about apostasy:

The Quran declares emphatically:
�Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth is distinct from error!� (Quran, 2:256)

Tafsir al-Jalalayn, a classical Islamic text, says of this verse: �This was revealed concerning the Ansar who tried to compel their sons to enter into Islam.� Some of their children were Jewish, and the parents wished to force them to become Muslims. In Al-Suyuti�s classical text Asbab al-Nuzul (Reasons for Revelation), it also says that there was a Muslim father by the name of Husayn bin Salim bin Awf who had two daughters both of whom were Christians. After failing to convince them to convert to Islam of their own free will, he went to the Islamic prophet Muhammad and requested permission to compel them into Islam. It was for this that the verse �Let there be no compulsion in religion� was revealed, to forbid parents from forcibly converting their children to Islam.

�And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?� (Quran, 10:99)

�And had God willed, He could have made you all one [religious] community, but He sends astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. But you shall certainly be called to account for what you (yourself) used to do [i.e. not what others used to do].� (Quran, 16:93)

�The Truth is from your Lord; so let him who please believe and let him who please disbelieve.� (Quran, 18:29)

�Exhort them to believe; your task is only to exhort. You cannot compel them to believe.� (Quran, 88:21-22)

�Those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them nor guide them to the Way.� (Quran, 4:137)

This verse is evident that there can be NO punishment for apostasy, since the verse is clearly acknowledging those who believe, then disbelieved and again believe (contrary to your thinking that apostates would have been put to death in the first place !)

I hope the argument clearly proves that the punishment of apostates is not death in Islam. you can check this link for more info: Fathima Bary Needs To Read Her Bible

Now care to explain: Deuteronomy 13:6-10 and 2 Chronicles 15:13 ?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 March 2012 at 10:50am
I asked a simple question. Did your prophet say those words or not?

Your answer was to attempt to put into context for him saying those words (I'm thinking that's what you were doing). However, I wouldn't even have asked that question if we didn't have examples of "apostates" today, being put to death or sentenced for death simply for changing their religion.

These apostates haven't done anything wrong, as per your example, in a war or trying to hurt Islam. All they did was leave Islam. Islam isn't threatened if these people are simply allowed to leave, are they?

The Islamic states that are putting these people to death use your prophets statements in their books of Law. So maybe you should explain to them that they are taking him out of context.

Until then it remains clear that Islam is spread by the use of force.

What does Deuteronomy 13:6-10 and 2 Chronicles 15:13, have to do with Islam being spread by the sword?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 March 2012 at 10:23pm
Originally posted by Hughes Hughes wrote:

The question isn't are the rates increasing or not, the question is how is Islam spread? And are people threatened with their life if they want to leave?


No, it is a practical impossibility for Islam to have high conversion rates among even non-muslim countries in this day and age if it is spread over fear or force. I don't really think that's all that hard to understand.


Furthermore, if you have actually gathered stuff from an anti-Islamic source, then that's the problem. That's something which affects credibility, especially in the case of a cause like yours. Doing that means you already believed that Islam is being spread by force or fear, before you had even checked if that happened to be true. That is bias. Not something a non-biased person would do, he/she would verify from a neutral source before accusing.


The Quran does not state to kill. What you probably have done is merely point out out-of-context verses, just as many do. What you need to do is to actually bother to conceive the context being highlighted. Just as you attempted to with the Bible verse a member had referred you to.


Edited by xx__Ace__xx - 08 March 2012 at 10:59pm
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