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Larry: "Were there more than one version of Quran"

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iec786 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 29 February 2012 at 7:56am
You are stumped.You could not respond.Hence the the crying.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Larry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 February 2012 at 7:51pm
Hasan,

   It's nice to hear from you, I can always expect a vigorous, but respectful, dialog between us, something I have been missing in my posts of late.

   Your answers (based on my questions) are interesting and I am happy to comment on them.

   You say that even if some surahs were taken out or are missing,

   "that is not the same as transforming word of God through rewriting, reinterpretations and retranslation without any originals hundreds of years later over and over as in the case of the Bible, it will just have some verses missing? And that's all you will get in the result, if we assume what you have come up with is true. God's word, the Quran is still with us today, pure in it's original language and state, no one has rewritten it, once it was written down first, and finalized by those entrusted of that job. Can any other book claim and prove that status?"

   My response to you would be that if there were ANY differences between various copies of the Quran it would show that the present Quran is not word-for-word pure and unchanged in ANY way.

   Either Ubayy b Ka'ab's version had the additional chapters, Surah Al-Khal or Surah Al-Afd, or it did not. And either Abdullah Ibn Masud's "Kufan Codex" differed from the "official" Quran of Uthman by leaving out Surahs 1, 113, and 114, or it did not

   You say, and I agree, "No one has rewritten it, ONCE it was written down first, and FINALIZED by those entrusted of that job (Uthman's standardization)."

   What I am saying is that IF there were, in fact, earlier variant mushafs (above) that did not correspond exactly to Uthman's mushaf, who finalized the Qur'an in the form it is in today, then it is not EXACTLY the same. I am not speaking of diacritical marks or pronunciations, but MISSING Surahs that are not in today's Quran.

   I agree with you that every letter and word of Uthman's mushaf is in the Qur'an as it exists today. I am just saying that if it has missing verses then it cannot be said that Uthman's mushaf is the same as ANY earlier mushaf, including the original.

   You made the point that the Bible was rewritten, reinterpreted and retranslated "without any originals." I would simply say that the Qur'an has no existing original either. And it cannot be proved that the "original" Qur'an (Hafsah's Codex) is EXACTLY the same as Uthman's mushaf because it was intentionally destroyed by early Muslim authorities and cannot be compared.

   Even though this forum is not about the Bible I will still comment on some of your statements concerning it. I agree that there are no existing "originals" of any chapter in the Bible, Old or New Testament. The oldest existing copy of any book in the Bible is a copy of the book of Isaiah, written in approximately 200 B.C.

   I would add that the Hebrew of the Isaiah scroll of 200 B.C. is IDENTICAL to the Hebrew used in the Jewish Old Testament or Torah as it is written today.

   The Bible was ORIGINALLY written is different languages, Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic, and has no "original" chapter in ANY ONE LANGUAGE. The Qur'an was written in the "original" Arabic only, so the two cannot be fairly compared in that way.

    I agree with you that the Bible has been translated and reinterpreted many times which is the only way a written work, in various different languages and translations can be when translated from one language to another. There is NO translation, including the Qur'an, that is EXACTLY the same, word-for-word, when translated into another language. Languages are precise, but when translated into another language there are always variations.

   In my previous message to you I pointed out some differences based on translation. For example, in the Qur'an when Gabriel appears to Mary and announces the "gift of a HOLY son," as in the translation used here on Islamicity. In English, or any other language, translations of the words have various forms. This is shown in some English translations of the Qur'an it is written that it is the "gift of a RIGHTEOUS son." This is a common problem when translating anything into another language.

   The Septuagint is the oldest Greek version of the Old Testament, traditionally said to have been translated by 70 or 72 Jewish scholars at the request of Ptolemy II.

   My Bible, the New King James Version, differs from the original King James Bible because the language is modernized from the Old English of the 17th Century that was used when it was originally translated into English.

   And even in my New King James Version there are slight differences in translation. For example:

   Isaiah 53:5 says "But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed."

   The word, "wounded" has a footnote that states that the literal translation can also mean "pierced through."

   The word, "stripes" has a footnote that states that the literal translation can also mean "Blows that cut in."

   There are books called the "Apocrypha" which are various religious writings of uncertain origin that are included in the Septuagint and the Latin Vulgate Old Testaments. These books are considered as "inspired" by some, but regarded as "works of doubtful authorship or authenticity" by most modern scholars and Biblical authorities. These books are not included in the New King James Bible that I use.

   The point I want to make is that the claim that the Bible is "corrupted" based on differences like these between versions, is an unfair criticism that does not take into account the circumstances I spoke of above. What "version" of the Bible is referred to as "corrupt" by non-Christians? And what "corruption" is being referred to, the fact that there are different words between versions? Or simply that there are different versions?

   Comparisons between the Qur'an and Bible are simply not legitimate based on whether the Qur'an has stayed the same in ARABIC and whether the Bible has stayed the same in Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic. Christianity has never taken the Bible and made sure ALL versions are exactly the same IN EACH LANGUAGE and then destroy any variant readings. The Qur'an was written and differing mushafs were compared in Arabic only. But if one reads an ENGLISH, or any other language than the Arabic version of the Qur'an, there will always be differences in the words used in that translation. So the claim that the Qur'an is perfect word-for-word applies only to Uthman's mushaf in the original Arabic.

   Since we do not possess the "original" writings of the Bible in the Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic languages, it is impossible to prove that they are identical to the books as they are written today in those languages, just the same as with the Qur'an.

   And the Biblical Old Testament, written in Hebrew, has the additional burden of being written millenia before the Qur'an, making the task of finding or authenticating the "originals" impossible for all intents and purposes.

Larry

Hasan,

   I just wanted to state, for the benefit of some others, that the above writings are by me and are not "cut-and-pasted" or plagiarized from any source. I used the dictionary for some descriptions of things like the Apocrypha, for an example or emphasis and facts such as dates, numbers, etc. And any Bible quotes are taken from my New King James Authorized Version Bible word-for-word.

Larry


      

    

   

    

   

Edited by Larry - 09 October 2012 at 2:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Larry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 February 2012 at 5:26pm
iec786,

   You have ZERO credibility. You plagiarize other writer's works (TWICE FROM THE EXACT SAME SOURCE), word-for-word, by cut-and-paste, to avoid having to answer simple, direct questions posed to you, and you simply will not give direct answers for anything because of this intellectual laziness of yours, which you blame on others.
   You are rude and dismissive and I will simply have nothing further to do with you or your "answers", that are simply taken, from another source and do not answer the specific questions that are asked of you. Your "answers" are like telling someone if they want to know what a specific word is to read the dictionary and the answer will be in there somewhere.
   Play your games with someone else. I will not engage, or respond to any further nonsense from you.

Larry

Edited by Larry - 28 February 2012 at 8:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2012 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by Larry Larry wrote:

Hasan,

   Jack asked you to produce the 4 "personal copies." 1. Abdullah Ibn Masud, 2. Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hudaifah, 3. Ubayy b. Ka'ab, 4. Muadh bin Jabal."

    You replied, "Jack, I think you have realized that in the times we live it is not possible so thus you ask for it.

   1. What did you mean by "...in the times we live in it is not possible..."?

   2. You said that "the Prophet allowed several Companions to have their own manuscripts (collection of fragments.)" Are you saying that the Companions manuscripts were simply incomplete fragments of the Qur'an? Why would the Prophet allow this?

   3. The "Kufan Codex" of Abdullah Ibn Masud, Muhammad's personal servant, differed in the order of the Surahs and did not have Chapters 1, 113, and 114 of the "official" copy of the Qur'an.

   4. You said earlier that "Ibn Masud was well within his right to compile his personal copy any way he wanted. It was for his PERSONAL (emphasis yours) use."

   Are you saying that Ibn Masud simply compiled his version of the Qur'an in a haphazard way, leaving out Chapters 1, 113, 114, simply because because it was his "personal" copy and not meant to be read by anyone else?

   5. Ubayy b Ka'ab, Muhammad's secretary after Muhammad came to Medina, had a version that differed from the "official" Qur'an of Uthman because it had two additional chapters; Surat Al-Khal and Surat Al-Afd. Ubayy died during the reign of Umar, so he was not alive when Uthman burned his version of the Qur'an.

   I haven't really seen anyone explain these two variant writings, or omissions, and why they are not in the "official" Qur'an. These are contents of the various texts, not mere changes in pronunciation and recitation or dialects.

   6. You also earlier said that the Qur'an has no discrepancies, yet the Qur'an varies widely in it's pronouncements about the role and status of the "Peoples of the Book" and how they are to be seen and treated by Muslims. Why the remarkably striking differences?

Larry
 
Larry,
sorry for a late reply.
Let us assume what you are saying is true for a moment, still it does not prove alteration to God's word in the Quran. If some suras were taken out or not included (as you claim) in the final copies of the Quran that are with us today, that is not same as trasnforming word of God through rewriting, reinterpretations and retranslation without any originals hundereds of years later over and over as in the case of the Bible, it will just have some verses missing? And that's all you will get in the result, if we assume what you have come up with is true. God's word, the Quran is still with us today, pure in its original language, even in that case where we take your assumption as a fact. Too bad we cannot assume the same in the case of your book, can we?
The fact is Quran is in its original laguage and state, no one has rewritten it, once it was written down first, and finalized by those entrusted of that job. Can any other book claim and prove that status? I am waiting, if there is!
Hasan
 
 


Edited by honeto - 27 February 2012 at 3:19pm
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iec786 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2012 at 12:15pm
mr Larry,

I see you ran away from the 50000 errors in the Bible anyway here is a responce to your questions.

The Qur'anic Manuscripts



There has been a polemic going on that the Qur'an does not have manuscripts from the first century of hijra. However, this is not true. Many fragments of early Qur'anic manuscripts were shown by Orientalists notably Nabia Abbott in her work The Rise of the North Arabic script and its Kur'anic development, with a full description of the Kur'an manuscripts in the Oriental Institute (1939, University of Chicago Press). There she discusses some of the Quranic manuscripts, dated from second half of the first century hijra onwards, at the Oriental Institute, University of Chicago. The aim of this page is to highlight some of the early Qur'anic manuscripts to refute the claim that the Qur'an lacks manuscripts from the first century of hijra.

The dig at the Great Mosque in Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen, had found a large number of manuscripts of the Qur'an dating from first century of hijra. The date of building the Great Mosque in Ṣanʿāʾ goes back to 6th year of hijra when the Prophet Muhammad entrusted one of his companions to build a mosque. The mosque was extended and enlarged by Islamic rulers from time to time. In 1385 H/1965 CE heavy rains fell on Ṣanʿāʾ. The Great Mosque was affected and the ceiling in the north west corner was damaged. During the survey, the workers discovered a large vault full of parchment and paper manuscripts of both the Qur'an and non-Qur'anic material.

The UNESCO, an arm of the United Nations, had compiled a CD containing some of the dated Ṣanʿāʾ manuscripts as a part of "Memory of the World" programme. In this CD there are many Qur'anic manuscripts written in the hijazi script which are dated from 1st century of hijra, one of them belonging to early 1st century. Many more manuscripts have been dated from the period 1st / 2nd century of hijra. We will be showing only a few examples below.

A few more examples of the 1st and 1st / 2nd century hijra Qur'anic manuscripts can be found in the book Maṣāḥif Ṣanʿāʾ (1985, Dār al-Athar al-Islāmiyyah). This book is a catalogue of an exhibition at the Kuwait National Museum, with articles by Hussa Sabah Salim al-Sabah, G. R. Puin, M. Jenkins, U. Dreibholz in both Arabic and English. It is expected that the Ṣanʿāʾ manuscripts will throw a great deal of light on the early Islamic history of calligraphy and illumination and even the various ahruf (they were seven) in which the Qur'an was revealed.

A few words of caution concerning the dating of the Qur'anic manuscripts need to be mentioned. It is to be remembered that assigning a date to an undated early Qur'anic manuscript is rarely simple especially in the absence of wakf marking. There is a tendency to assume that those in large scripts and without vowels are of the earliest date. This assumption, true to some extent, is nevertheless misleading in two respects. It ignores that fact that small as well as large maṣāḥif of the Qur'an were among the earliest written and that both types continued to be written thereafter. Though the assumption that manuscripts with the vowels must be considered later than those without is true in some cases, it is not always so, for some very early manuscripts of the Qur'an, originally written without vowels, may well have been voweled later. Furthermore, the first vowel system came into use shortly after the first maṣāḥif were written. There are also examples of later maṣāḥif which were unvoweled even after 3 centuries after hijra!

As a matter of caution, we stress the fact that we are only showing a single leaf of the manuscripts in the cases below. A manuscript may contain additional sūrahs. The reader is advised to go through the references for additional information.

Looking for something similar? Try

The Arabic Papyri | Arabic & Islamic Inscriptions | The Islamic Coins

1. The Qur'anic Script & Palaeography
On The Origins Of The Kufic Script

The Christian missionaries have claimed that the Kufic script originated not earlier than 150 years after hijra. They have argued that it is also the view of both Martin Lings and Yasin Safadi. This article is a devastating refutation of their claims.

The Dotting Of A Script And The Dating Of An Era: The Strange Neglect Of PERF 558, A. Jones, Islamic Culture, 1998, Volume LXXII, No. 4, pp. 95-103.

It is usually assumed that the dotting of the Arabic script began with the advent of dotting of Qur'anic manuscripts. However, recent observation on a 70 year old Arabic papyri has shown conclusively that dotting was available as early as 22 AH, perhaps even earlier.

From Alphonse Mingana To Christoph Luxenberg: Arabic Script & The Alleged Syriac Origins Of The Qur'an

A path-breaking discourse or is it yet another headline grabbing exercise? You decide!

Concise List Of Arabic Manuscripts Of The Qur'ān Attributable To The First Century Hijra.

The study of ancient manuscripts of the Qur'an is steadily gathering pace. In decades past, a few scholars have compiled lists of Qur'anic manuscripts attributable to the 1st century hijra. Although helpful, these lists contain only the barest details, usually only the name of the manuscript concerned or sometimes even less. With this in mind, we have constructed this document that contains additional details providing further insights into these valuable manuscripts, accompanied by full bibliographic references. A discussion of how scholars date early Qur'anic manuscripts and an assessment of the value of these manuscripts is also provided along with some detailed mathematical calculations. Should one ponder over this list, they will come to the appreciation scholars involved in this field of study suffer from an embarrassment of riches. Quite simply, there is no other work from the Late Antiquity that comes close to the Qur'an in terms of the number of their earliest manuscripts including textual content.

Radiocarbon (Carbon-14) Dating And The Qur'ānic Manuscripts.

Radiocarbon dating of ancient Qur'anic manuscripts in the literature is very rare. Can radiocarbon dating provide more accurate results than traditional palaeographic techniques and associated methods? A discussion of the scientific principles underpinning this radiometric dating technique, together with some practical examples from actual Qur'anic manuscripts, highlights the strengths and weaknesses of this procedure as compared to more traditional palaeographic based methods.

Dated Texts Containing The Qur�an From 1-100 AH / 622-719 CE.

The corpus of dated texts containing the Qur'an from 1-100 AH / 622-719 CE proving the early codification of the Qur'an in Arabic.

2. Examples Of The Qur'anic Manuscripts

THE ʿUTHMĀNIC MANUSCRIPTS

No discussion about the Qur'anic manuscripts begins without the mention of the ʿUthmānic manuscripts of the Qur'an. Narrations differ as to how many copies were directly ordered and sent out by the Caliph ʿUthmān, but they range from four to seven. It seems certain from various Muslim historical sources that several were lost, through fire amongst other things. There are some copies that are attributed to ʿUthmān. However, it is to be added that there is a disagreement between the scholars whether they are truly ʿUthmānic. Some Western scholars have rejected the Qur'anic manuscripts attributed to ʿUthmān as "pious forgeries" without showing any scientific evidence (i.e., study of the parchment, script, ink etc.). This itself is unscientific to an extreme. We will discuss some important manuscripts attributed to ʿUthmān below.

The �Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān� At Tashkent (Samarqand), Uzbekistan, From 2nd Century Hijra.

A folio from a Qur'anic manuscript in Tashkent, Uzbekistan, commonly attributed to caliph ʿUthmān, has recently been subject to radiocarbon tests at Oxford, United Kingdom. Although the dates generated by this radiometric technique at either confidence level do not rule out the possibility that this manuscript was produced in ʿUthmān's time, palaeographic studies suggest an 8th century (2nd century hijra) date.

The �Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān� At The Topkapi Museum, Istanbul, Turkey, From 1st / 2nd Century Hijra.

This manuscript was written in kufic script and contains 408 folios. The extant folios contain more than 99% of the text of the Qur'an. Only two folios are missing. The manuscript shows the script, illumination and marking of vowels that are from the Umayyad times (i.e., late 1st century / early 2nd century of hijra).

The �Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān� At The T�rk ve İslam Eserleri M�zesi (Turkish and Islamic Art Museum), Istanbul, Turkey, From 1st / 2nd Century Hijra.

A manuscript written in the kufic script on gazelle skin, and contains 439 folios. Interestingly, on the last folio of the manuscript is written in kufic script �Katabahu ʿUthmān bin ʿAffān fī sanat thalathyn� (�ʿUthmān bin ʿAffān wrote in the year 30�). However, the script and ornamentation negates this possibility.

The �Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān� At St. Petersburg (Russia), Katta Langar, Bukhārā And Tashkent (Uzbekistan), From 2nd Century Hijra.

A manuscript written in the late the ḥijāzī script, containing about 40% of the text of the Qur'an, with full texts of 22 surahs and fragments of another 22.

The �Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān� At The Al-Hussein Mosque, Cairo, Egypt, From 1st / 2nd Century Hijra.

This monumental Qur'anic manuscript on parchment showing a well-formed kufic script, written in dark-brown ink with sparse diacritical marks and no ornamentation. Total number of folios are 1087. Size: 57 cm x 68 cms. The height of the muṣḥaf is 40 cm and weighs 80 kgs. The extant folios contain more than 99% of the text of the Qur'an.

The �Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān� At The Egyptian National Library (Dār Al-Kutub Al-Misrīyya), Cairo, Egypt, From 1st / 2nd Century Hijra.

A monumental Qur'anic manuscript on parchment showing a well-formed kufic script. Total number of folios are 306. The script is slightly sloping backwards with tall ascenders and is strongly reminiscent of the type of well executed kufic script exhibited during the Umayyad period. There is no vocalisation and a very limited amount of consonantal pointing (i.e., diacritical marks) � on some folios there are no diacritical marks at all. Multi-coloured (e.g., red, green, black, brown) diagonally arranged dashes are usually used to indicate verse-endings. Groups of five verses are marked with medallions and square cartouches containing quatrefoil emblems are used to indicate groups of ten verses. There are some arcaded bands that separate sūrahs without mentioning the name of the sūrah, some containing triangular-shaped crenellations.

THE QUR'ANIC MANUSCRIPTS ATTRIBUTED TO ʿALI B. ABI ṬALIB

The third and fourth caliphs, i.e., ʿUthmān and ʿAlī, share a very interesting aspect � attribution of �authorship� of numerous manuscripts of the Qur'an. In this section, we will present the manuscripts attributed to ʿAlī b. Abī Ṭālib.

The �Qur'ān Of ʿAlī b. Abī Ṭālib� (The Ṣanʿāʾ Muṣḥaf) From 1st / 2nd Century Hijra.

This manuscript was written in kufic script and contains 275 folios. The extant folios contain about 86% of the text of the Qur'an. The script is slightly sloping backwards and is reminiscent of the type of well-executed kufic script exhibited during the Umayyad period. Single dots were placed above, beside or below the letters. Two dots were placed to indicate the nunation known as tanwīn. Diacritical marks are represented by dashes. The ending of verses is indicated by a series of 5 or 6 dashes. The sūrahs are separated by wide horizontal bands in the form of rectangles. The inside of the band is decorated differently for every sūrah separator. The sequence of the sūrahs is just like what is seen in modern day copies of the Qur'an. The codex is contains large ornamentaled circles to indicate every 10 verses. Ornamented rectangular shaped signs are used to indicate every 100 verses.

FIRST CENTURY HIJRA

Below are the examples of the 1st century hijra manuscripts written in the ḥijāzī and the Kufic scripts.

Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-27.1 � A Qur'ānic Manuscript From Mid-1st Century Of Hijra.

Perhaps the most significant manuscript of the Qur'an palimpsest so far discovered at Ṣanʿāʾ, this codex is datable to the middle of the first century of hijra and consists of 40 folios. The leaves from codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-27.1 have appeared under the hammer at auction houses like Christie's, Sotheby's and Bonham's; the most recent one at Christie's in 2008 fetching a remarkable sum of �2,200,000, around fifteen times the estimated asking price. This codex exemplifies the principal tendencies of the early ḥijāzī script and is of tremendous importance regarding the textual transmission of the Qur'an, Arabic palaeography, codicology and other related disciplines. A detailed description of the folios, including the textual content of scriptio inferior and scriptio inferior, is provided.

Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-25.1 � A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Of Hijra.

Written in the ḥijāzī script. The codex consists of 29 folios. There are few diacritical marks but no vocalization. The verses divisions indicate the beginning of the usage of simple ornamentation which is nothing but adjacent strokes. An interesting feature of this early ḥijāzī manuscript is the presence of sūrah al-Fātiḥah which is followed immediately by sūrah al-Baqarah. The presence of sūrah al-Fātiḥah is rare in the Qur'ans from first century hijra, the only other known example being the �Great Umayyad Qur'ān�, DAM 20-33.1, also from Ṣanʿāʾ.

Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-29.1 � A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Of Hijra.

Written in the ḥijāzī script. This codex was probably written by at least two different copyists as the scripts differ in various folios. There are few diacritical marks but no vocalization. The sūrahs are separated by simple ornaments. There are 35 folios in this codex and they have ~22% text of the Qur'an. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Arabe 328a � A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra In Biblioth�que Nationale, Paris.

This is one of the most important manuscripts written in the ḥijāzī script from 1st century hijra. It has 58 folios; 56 of them at the the Biblioth�que Nationale, Paris, and one each at the Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana (Vat. Ar. 1605) and the Nasser David Khalili Collection (Acc. no. KFQ 60). This manuscript has 58 folios which contains about 26% of the total text of the Qur'an. The discussion on the folio at the Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana is available here.

MS. Or. 2165 � A Qur'ānic Manuscript From The 1st Century Hijra In The British Library.

Hailed as by the earlier keepers of it as "probably the earliest Qur'an ever brought to Europe", the British Library says that it is the "oldest Qur'an manuscript" in their possession. This manuscript is written in the ḥijāzī (or ma'il) script. It is usually dated around the mid-second century of hijra. However, a recent study by Yasin Dutton has shown that this manuscript is remarkably similar to the first century Qur'anic manuscript MS. Arabe 328a in the Biblioth�que Nationale, Paris. Based on the similarity between MS. Arabe 328a and MS. Or. 2165, he suggests redating this manuscript to the time just before the Umayyad Caliph Walid (r. 86-96 AH), i.e., within the period 30-85 AH with the latter end of this time scale being safer. This manuscript has 121 folios which contains about 53% of the total text of the Qur'an.

The �Great Umayyad Qur'ān� (Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 20-33.1) From The Time Of Caliph Al-Walīd, Late 1st Century Hijra.

This monumental and the earliest kufic Qur'anic manuscript, perhaps one of the most well-studied and is dated to the last decade of the 1st century of hijra, around 710 - 715 CE, in the reign of the Umayyad Caliph al-Walīd. This manuscript is unique in the sense that it open with a group of full page images. These images are the only known Qur'an illustrations and are absolutely unique among extant Qur'an manuscripts. Apparently 25(?) folios from this codex survive. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

The �Damascus Umayyad Qur'ān� TIEM ŞE 321 � 1st Century Of Hijra.

This manuscript was dated by D�roche using art-historical methods to the time after 72 AH / 691-692 CE or more probably during the last quater of the 1st (early 8th) century AH. It is written in kufic or perhaps late ḥijāzī script. The letters are spread over the entire page due to an extensive use of elongation of horizontal connections or to a regular spacing of the letters or groups of letters irrespective of being part of the word or not. The sūrah headings are illuminated. The illumination of this Qur'an relies on motifs which find their parallels with the mosaics at the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. The codex has 33+ folios and is located at the T�rk ve İslam Eserleri M�zesi (Turkish and Islamic Art Museum), Istanbul, Turkey.

The �Mingana Palimpsest� � A Manuscript Containing The Qur'ān From 1st Century Hijra.

Mrs. Agnes Smith Lewis was the first scholar to publish this unique palimpsest that has scriptio superior which is a Christian material (Arabic Christian homilies) and the scriptio inferior consisting of the Qur'anic verses. Mingana presented a full transcription of the Qur'anic text of the scriptio inferior of the manuscript, with the parallel text from the present day Qur'an. But his claim of "variants" in the Qur'anic text has come under suspicion partly because of his own history of being involved in suspected forgeries. Recent study by Fedeli on this manuscript has confirmed that the "inevitable and easy conclusion" is that all of Mingana's transcription can be suspected to be wrong. A recent surge of interest in this manuscript is due to the fact that the scriptio inferior was written in the ḥijāzī script.

M. 1572 � A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Of Hijra.

This manuscript belongs to what is commonly known as the �Mingana Collection�. Manuscript on parchment. It is written in the ḥijāzī script. The codex has 9 folios. The pages have been wrongly folded, so that the text is disordered. The consonants are differentiated by dashes. The muṣḥaf is partly vocalised with red dots by a later(?) hand. Red punctuation dots and zigzag lines with ink dots separating sūrahs (fol. 1r) and barbed red design (fol. 3r). Six or three oval dots usually punctuate the verses. Every tenth verse is marked by a hollow circle surrounded by dots.

Inv. No. LNS 19 CAab � A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Of Hijra.

This manuscript bears a striking resemblence to the British Musuem Ms. Or. 2165. Just like the latter, the former is not vocalised. The consonants are frequently differentiated by dashes. Six oval dots ranked in three pairs punctuate the verses. Every tenth verse is marked by a red hollow circle surrounded by dots. Even the size of the folio is same as those found in Ms. Or. 2165. Thus, it can be said with reasonable certainty that both Ms. Or. 2165 and LNS 19 CAab belong to the same codex. There is one folio in this collection. Located at Dār al-Athar al-Islāmiyyah, Kuwait.

Ms. Or. Fol. 4313 � A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Of Hijra.

Written in the ḥijāzī script. The codex has 8 folios. Manuscript on parchment. The muṣḥaf is not vocalised. The consonants are differentiated by dashes. Six oval dots ranked in three pairs usually punctuate the verses. Every tenth verse is marked by a hollow circle surrounded by dots. Folios located at Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin, Germany, and Dār al-Kutub al-Misriyya, Cairo.

QUR-1-TSR � A Qur'ānic Manuscript At The Tareq Rajab Museum, Kuwait, From 1st Century Of Hijra.

Manuscript on parchment. Written in the ḥijāzī script. The muṣḥaf is not vocalised. The consonants are frequently differentiated by dashes. Seven set of dashes with the first two ranked in a pair mark the end of verses. There are 26 lines to page. Only one folio exists.

An �Umayyad� Fragment Of The Qur'ān From 1st Century Hijra.

This private-owned fragment of the Qur'an was recently published by Yasin Dutton. On the basis of palaeography and radiocarbon analysis, he dated it to the second half of the 1st century of hijra / late 7th or early 8th century CE.

A Qur'ānic Manuscript In The Ḥijazi Script From c. 700 CE.

Eight folios (one fragmentary), 20-27 lines to the page written in brown ḥijāzī script, diacritical marks, where present, consists of oval dots or angled dashes, no vowel points, clusters of brown ink dots to indicate verse divisions, circular devices consisting of green and red dots every ten verses, one long, narrow rectangular panel of green and red decoration with a circular marginal device consisting of coloured dots on final folio, probably to indicate the sūrah heading of sūrah al-Nisa, leaves sewn together with original stitching. It contains sūrah āl-�Imrān, verses 34-184.

A Qur'ānic Leaf In The Ḥijāzī Script On Vellum, 1st Century Of Hijra.

It is written in the ḥijāzī script in brown ink on vellum. No vocalization, verses indicated occasionally by four dots; a few dots and angled dashes indicating diacritical marks and consonants.

A Perg. 2 � A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra.

Written in the ḥijāzī script. Yellowish, thin parchment with strong damage. Located at the Austrian National Library, Vienna

A Perg. 213 � A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra.

Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the ḥijāzī script. Two folios extant.

A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra: Surah al-Ma'idah. Verses 7 Through 12.

A manuscript from the Beit al-Qur'an, Manama, Bahrain, written in the Kufic script.

P. Micha�lid�s No. 32 � A Qur'ānic Manuscript From First Century Hijra.

Manuscript from the Collection George Micha�lid�s, Cairo (Egypt) written in the Kufic(?) script.

A Ma�il Manuscript in Kuwait � A Qur'anic Manuscript From First Century Hijra.

Manuscript from the Tariq Rajab Museum, Kuwait. Written in the ma�il script [External Link].

FIRST / SECOND CENTURY HIJRA

Codex Mixt. 917 � A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st / 2nd Century Hijra.

This manuscript was written in either the late ḥijāzī or kufic script and contains 105 folios. The extant folios contain about 27% of the text of the Qur'an. A rare form of punctuation is also displayed in this manuscript corroborating its eighth century CE dating.

Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-28.1 � A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st / 2nd Century Of Hijra.

This codex, found in the Great Mosque in Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen, has 60 folios. There is a clear definition of the text area and of the distance between the lines which has given a uniform appearance, a feature which is generally uncommon in the ḥijāzī manuscripts. Diacritical marks are frequent. It has Qur'an 2:1�71:14 (fragmented, not sequential text).

Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-18.3 � A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st / 2nd Century Of Hijra.

Written in the late ḥijāzī script. The codex consists of 16 folios. Few diacritical marks but no vocalization. The vertical format is a common feature of most Qur'ans written in the ḥijāzī style. This example is an exception, where the horizontal format contradicts somewhat vertical features of the script.

Surah al-Isra' (17) Verses Number: From 20 To 22 And Part Of 23.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah al-Mumtahinah (60) Verses Number: Part Of 4 To 8 And Part Of 9.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah al-Ma'idah. Verses Number: Part Of Verse 94 To Part Of Verse 97.

Manuscript from the Beit al-Qur'an, Manama (Bahrain), written in the Kufic script.

SECOND CENTURY HIJRA

Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-30.1 � A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 2nd Century Of Hijra.

It is written in the late ḥijāzī script. There are about 32 lines per page. Few diacritical marks but no vocalization. The indication of the end of every tenth verses has been added later. The total number of folios in this codex are not known but 9 of them have been published so far. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-32.1 � A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 2nd Century Of Hijra.

Written in the late ḥijāzī script. About 12 lines per page. It has few diacritical marks but the vocalization is probably contemporary. The style bears many features common to both ḥijāzī and early Kufic, or perhaps show a transition from the former to the latter. The total number of folios in this codex are not known but 7 of them have been published so far. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-29.2 � A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 2nd Century Of Hijra.

This beautiful codex is one of the two Qur'ans found in Ṣanʿāʾ which resemble the monumental codex from Syria, the �Great Umayyad Qur'ān� (Codex Ṣanʿāʾ � DAM 20-33.1). Their similarity in size, proportion, number of lines, script and illumination suggest that the �Great Umayyad Qur'an� may have served as a model. The fragments from this codex reflect the Syrian codex in quality rather than features. The letters are spaciously distributed and once connected individual letters tend to blend with their neighbours. The total number of folios in this codex are not known but 10 of them have been published so far. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Codex TIEM ŞE 12995 � A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 2nd Century Of Hijra.

Written in the ḥijāzī script. The interesting part of this manuscript is the use of different colour of inks. Four varieties of ink have been used for the copy of the text. In addition of the most common used brown ink, the scribe also employed a red, an orange and a green one. These inks are not connected with the beginning or the end of sūrahs. The usage of inks does not follow any rule or sequence. However, an interesting patterning of the coloured inks is applied to the last three lines of a sūrah and the first three lines of the next one. For example, the end of sūrah al-Nisā is written in green and contrasts wiith the first and third lines of sūrah al-Mā'idah which are written in red, the second one being also in green. Only 22 folios of this codex survive. It is written in the reading of Ibn ʿĀmir. Located at the T�rk ve İslam Eserleri M�zesi (Turkish and Islamic Art Museum), Istanbul, Turkey.

The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At Tashkent (Samarqand), Uzbekistan, From 2nd Century Hijra.

This famous manuscript, also known as the Samarqand manuscript, housed in Tashkent, is commonly attributed to Caliph �Uthman. A folio from a Qur'anic manuscript in Tashkent, Uzbekistan, has recently been subject to radiocarbon tests at Oxford, United Kingdom. Although the dates generated by this radiometric technique at either confidence level do not rule out the possibility that this manuscript was produced in �Uthman's time, palaeographic studies suggest an 8th century (2nd century hijra) date.

The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At St. Petersburg (Russia), Katta Langar, Bukhārā And Tashkent (Uzbekistan), From 2nd Century Hijra.

A manuscript written in the late ḥijāzī script, containing about 40% of the text of the Qur'an, with full texts of 22 surahs and fragments of another 22.
A Perg. 203: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The Beginning Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Library.

Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Kufic script.

A Perg. 201: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The Beginning Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Library.

Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Kufic script.

A Perg. 186: A Qur'anic Manuscript From Middle Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Library.

Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Kufic script.

A Perg. 202: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Museum.

Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Makkan script.

A Perg. 207: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Museum.

Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Makkan script.

A Perg. 27: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The End Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Museum.

Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the mashq script.

One Of The Earliest Dated Qur'anic Manuscript (107 AH / 725 CE) At Egyptian National Library.

An example of one of the earliest dated Qur'anic manuscripts at the Dar al-Kutub al-Misriyya (Egyptian National Library), Cairo (Egypt).

A Kufic Manuscript in the King Faisal Centre For Research and Islamic Studies - A Qur'anic Manuscript From 2nd Century Hijra.

A manuscript from the King Faisal Centre For Research and Islamic Studies, Saudi Arabia, written in Kufic script [External Link].

SECOND / THIRD CENTURY HIJRA

Surah Al-Ma'idah, Surah al-An�am. Part Of 117 (Surah Al-Ma'idah) To Part Of 1 Of Surah Al-An�am.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah Al-Baqarah. Part Of 80 To Part Of 81.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah Al-Mursalat. 5 To 26 And Part Of 27.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

SOME UNIQUE MANUSCRIPTS

The Famous "Blue" Qur'an.

EXTERNAL LINKS TO THE QUR'ANIC MANUSCRIPTS

Professor Brannon Wheeler's Qur'an Manuscripts Page

It contains a healthy collection of Qur'anic manuscripts dated from 1st century of hijra onwards till 14th century of hijra in various scripts such as ma'il, kufic, thuluth, bihari, diwani, andalusi, maghribi and nastaliq.

The Sch�yen Collection, National Library Of Norway

It has some good collection of Qur'anic manuscripts dating from as early as 2nd century of hijra.

3. The Qira'at In The Qur'anic Manuscripts
Early Qur'anic manuscripts, unlike the modern printed editions, rarely contain information of the Qira'at in which they were written. Deciphering the Qira'at in the Qur'anic manuscripts is a recent endeavour and a very tedious task. Scholars like Nabia Abbott had only mentioned about Qira'at in the manuscripts in a very cursory way. Recently, in-depth studies have been undertaken to decipher the Qira'at in the Qur'anic manuscripts by Dr. Yasin Dutton of University of Edinburgh. He has been looking into various Qur'anic manuscripts to understand the purpose of using various coloured dots in the writing of the Qur'an and studying the consonantal structure (where dotting is nearly absent as in early Qur'ans written in ḥijāzī or ma'il script) to find out the Qira'at in which the Qur'an manuscript was written. Here are a few examples of the manuscripts in which the Qira'at has been identified.

The Qira'at Identified In The Qur'anic Manuscripts

We will also mention Dr. Dutton's publications and provide a brief overview. This section is primarily for those who have access to journals in their libraries.

Y. Dutton, "An Early Muṣḥaf According To The Reading Of Ibn �Amir", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 2001, Volume III (no. I), pp. 71-89.

This study is based on 1st century Qur'anic manuscript "Arabe 328a" in Biblioth�que Nationale, Paris, written in ḥijazi (or ma'il) script. This manuscript has enough material to be able to ascertain the reading it represents. This manuscript is almost devoid of dotting and hence the consonantal structure is used to determine the Qira'at and it was found to be that of Ibn �Amir (d. 118 / 736) - one of the reading later to be declared indisputably mutawatir by Ibn Mujahid (d. 324 / 926). This study is first of its kind on early Qur'anic manuscripts.

Y. Dutton, "Some Notes On The British Library's �Oldest Qur'an Manuscript� (Or. 2165)", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 2004, Volume VI (no. 1), pp. 43-71.

The study by Dr. Dutton has shown that this manuscript is remarkably similar to first century manuscript Arabe 328a in Biblioth�que Nationale, Paris, and was written in the Qira'at of Ibn �Amir. Based on the similarity between MS. Arabe 328a and MS. Or. 2165, he suggests redating this manuscript to the time just before Umayyad Caliph Walid (r. 86-96 AH), i.e., within the period 30-85 AH with the latter end of this time scale being the safer.

Y. Dutton, "Red Dots, Green Dots, Yellow Dots & Blue: Some Reflections On The Vocalisation Of Early Qur'anic Manuscripts - Part I", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 1999, Volume I (no. I), pp. 115-140.

Y. Dutton, "Red Dots, Green Dots, Yellow Dots & Blue: Some Reflections On The Vocalisation Of Early Qur'anic Manuscripts - Part II", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 2000, Volume II (no. I), pp. 1-24.

This two-part detailed study is done on the Qur'anic manuscripts from Bodleian Library (Oxford) that date from 3rd / 4th century of hijra. The broad conclusions of this study are:

Variants, including shadhdh variants, are not only marked, but in a sense, highlighted by the use of different coloured dots.
The presence of shadhdh variants alongside Seven, Ten or Fourteen Qira'a suggests that the shadhdh variants were treated as seriously as the main readings by those responsible for vocalization.
The vocalized manuscript enables us to have some idea of the reading, or readings, represented. Where there are only single or limited folios available this is not usually possible, but where there is either a distinctive feature, or enough of a sufficiently well-vocalized manuscript, it is often possible to fix the reading with some precision.
4. The Qur'anic Manuscripts In Museums, Institutes, Libraries & Collections

Maktabat al-Jami� al-Kabir (Maktabat al-Awqaf), The Great Mosque, San�a', Yemen (See the manuscripts from 1st, 1st/2nd, 2nd and 2nd/3rd century of hijra).

Dar al-Kutub al-Misriyya (Egyptian National Library), Cairo, Egypt.

Astan-i Quds-i Razavi Library, Mashhad, Iran.

Islamic Museum, Jerusalem, Palestine.

Beit al-Qur'an, Manama, Bahrain (See the manuscripts from 1st and 1st/2nd century of hijra).

The Nasser David Khalili Collection Of Islamic Art, London, United Kingdom.

Biblioth�que Nationale, Paris, France.

The Oriental Institute Museum, University of Chicago, Chicago, United States of America.

The Chester Beatty Library, Dublin, Ireland.

The Institute Of Oriental Studies, Russian Academy of Sciences, St. Petersburg, Russia (See the manuscript from 1st/2nd century of hijra).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iec786 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2012 at 12:13pm
iec786,

   If you can't answer the questions posed then simply don't answer. But to play word games is simply to avoid answering.
   Many Muslims have said that there are NO differences in the Qur'an, each and every Qur'an is perfect in it's written form, letter for letter. But evidently, according to you, that's not really true.
   You say, "please if you do not understand Arabic ask and we can get someone to give you lessons." We're not speaking about diacritical marks or punctuation, we're speaking of the SPELLING of each and every word. Does written ARABIC not really mean written ARABIC? Is the Arabic language something that changes from reader to reader or writer to writer?
   In English tomato and potato may be pronounced "to-MAH-to" or "to-MAY-to" or "po-TAH-to" or "po-TAY-to, but the spelling is exactly the same, letter for letter, and not, as you say, "examples of different people WRITING AND SPELLING IN DIFFERENT WAYS." It has nothing to do with pronunciation.
   We're not talking about the Bible, the topic of this thread is "Were there more than one version of Quran?" It has nothing to do with, as you say, "Sad(d)am(')s wmd total bull biscuits," or "The Jehovahs witnesses claim there are 50,000 errors in the Bible." DON'T TRY TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD.
   If there are SPELLING or WRITTEN differences between Uthman's Mushaf and those of Ibn Masud or Ubayy, or the Samarqand MSS, or there are missing Surah's or arrangement of those Surahs, then one cannot say that the Qur'an is "perfect" LETTER fror LETTER or WORD for WORD.
   I would direct your attention to the link in Kish's article of 26 Jan 2012 (Above), "An Extensive Textual Comparison of the Qur'an."
   I have asked six SPECIFIC questions in my statement of 23 Jan 2012 (ABOVE), I would ask you to answer specifically questions THREE, FOUR and FIVE, do you have THE ANSWERS FOR THOSE QUESTIONS OR NOT?
   Looking forward to your clarifications on these points.

Larry








You are a baby and acting like one grow up.

Look at what you posted and you have my answer. i will re-post the answer in case you missed it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iec786 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 February 2012 at 10:50am
The topic .You failed miserably to answer and now you want me to follow your childish ways.

Go and read the answer man stop talking trash.You are stumped.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Larry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 February 2012 at 11:54pm
iec786,

   "Plagiarize"? LOL!!!

   You say; "I HAVE RESEARCHED AN ARTICLE TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS WHICH YOU plagiarize FROM ANOTHER WEBSITE AND WHEN I REPLY USING THE NET YOU COME HERE AND CRY WOLF."

   LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

   You did not credit or identify the source of your "answer" (which you say you got "USING THE NET") I'm afraid it is you who is the "plagiarizer" here. You did not "RESEARCH" anything, you simply took an ENTIRE article, written by someone else, WORD FOR WORD and presented to me as your personally "researched answer" to my questions.

   Can you tell me the source (AUTHOR AND WEBSITE) of your "researched" answer (the author of the article that you simply COPIED BY CUT-AND-PASTING (WORD FOR WORD) it from the net?

   And then try and pretend that the "answer" was "researched" and written by you.

   But you can't do that, can you HYPOCRITE? Because if you do identify the SOURCE that you took the entire article WORD FOR WORD from, it will show that you simply stole someone else's writing IN ITS ENTIRETY, WORD FOR WORD, and pretend it is the result of your "research".

   "Plagiarism:"

   "The appropriation or imitation of the language, ideas and thoughts of another author's work, WORD FOR WORD, and presenting them as one's own efforts (Or, in your case, as one's own "research")."

   That is the DEFINITION of a "PLAGIARIZER."

   I was right last time when I called you a "hypocrite" which you have just proved that you are.

   By the way, can you show me precisely where (page or section) I asked you a question about anything that was copied WORD FOR WORD from the "answering islam" website?

   Because if you can't, then that means that YOU are the only plagiarizer here.

Larry

Edited by Larry - 23 February 2012 at 12:49am
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