When is Torture Justified? |
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abuayisha
Senior Member Muslim Joined: 05 October 1999 Location: Los Angeles Status: Offline Points: 5105 |
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Kidnapping Has Germans Debating Police Torture By RICHARD
BERNSTEIN The two most important facts of the case were readily
accepted today by the prosecution and the defense as the trial of a 27-year-old
law student named Magnus G�fgen opened in a standing-room-only courtroom here. The first fact is this: on Sept. 27, Mr. G�fgen kidnapped
Jakob von Metzler, the 11-year-old son of a prominent banker, and murdered him
by wrapping his mouth and nose in duct tape. Four days later, Mr. G�fgen was arrested after the police
watched him picking up the ransom, but after hours of interrogation he was
still refusing to disclose where Jakob was being kept. That is what produced the second undisputed fact:
imagining that Jakob's life might be in imminent danger, the deputy police
chief of Frankfurt, Wolfgang Daschner, ordered subordinates to extract the
necessary information from Mr. G�fgen by threatening to torture him. Mr. G�fgen was told, his lawyer later said, that ''a
specialist'' was being flown to Frankfurt by helicopter and that he would ''inflict
pain on me of the sort I had never before experienced.'' A few minutes after being threatened, Mr. G�fgen told the
police where Jakob was -- at a lake in a rural area near Frankfut -- but when
officers arrived there they discovered that Jakob, his body wrapped in plastic,
was already dead. The murder, involving a member of one of this country's
oldest and best-known families, horrified Germany and obsessed the media for
weeks. But in the months and weeks leading up to the trial, it
has not been so much the murder itself but the police resort to the threat of
torture that has aroused intense and heated debate about means and ends:
whether the case against Mr. G�fgen should be dismissed because the police
themselves broke the law, or whether in this particular case a resort to
torture was justified. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/10/world/kidnapping-has-germans-debating-police-torture.html
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schmikbob
Senior Member Male Joined: 27 June 2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 526 |
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I find it fascinating that the threat of torture is now torture. As I said before, this is one long gray continuum. Pretty soon insulting someone is going to be torture.
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Ron Webb
Senior Member Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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I find it fascinating that abuayisha would cite this particular case, where the victim died. This is hardly an example where torture worked.
But I'll save you the trouble of looking harder, abuayisha: I've already agreed that there might be rare circumstances where lives might be saved by torture. My point is that in the long run many more innocent lives will be lost. Any society which condones torture will necessarily become a more violent and cruel society. And before you ask: no, I can't back that up with any hard facts. It's just an opinion. However, I have read about statistical studies which show similar things, e.g. that increased prevalence and acceptance of guns, or the widespread use of the death penalty, is associated with more violence and antisocial behaviour.
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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abuayisha
Senior Member Muslim Joined: 05 October 1999 Location: Los Angeles Status: Offline Points: 5105 |
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Ron this particular case was illustrating to Umhalil that even the threat of torture works. Also, the investigators didn't know at the time of interrogation whether the child was dead or alive, and needed to immediately extract information. There is no doubt a governmental policy of torture is a slippery slope, but as you point out, in rare circumstances it may be useful to save lives. |
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Ron Webb
Senior Member Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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If your goal is to extract useless information, then yes, it did that. But if your claim is that it saves innocent lives, then clearly it didn't work. Jakob is dead.
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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abuayisha
Senior Member Muslim Joined: 05 October 1999 Location: Los Angeles Status: Offline Points: 5105 |
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Well Ron, for the father, and police investigators who certainly must have loathed this criminal, as well as emphasizing with the dad, likely being parents themselves, the information extracted was everything but useless. It's puzzling you have come to this conclusion. Tragic end, but it did indeed work.
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Ron Webb
Senior Member Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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I thought this was all about saving innocent lives. Do you really think that bringing closure to grieving relatives is sufficient justification for institutionalized torture?
By the way, the claim that torture can be justified because it (allegedly) works is very weak even if it is true. Personally, I think that terrorism works. On Al Qaeda's terms, 911 was extremely successful. Does that make terrorism okay? Same could be said about suicide bombers, or chemical/biological weapons. Where do you stop with this? At some point, don't you become the very thing that you hate?
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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abuayisha
Senior Member Muslim Joined: 05 October 1999 Location: Los Angeles Status: Offline Points: 5105 |
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Once again, the article was in response to my Sisters' comment that torture does not work. Your analogy is weak at best given the topic under discussion. |
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