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When is Torture Justified?
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2011 at 4:08pm

Originally posted by abuayisha abuayisha wrote:

Are we as a society prepared to prevent a looming catastrophe by subjecting a murderer to enhanced interrogation in order to get answers that may save innocent lives?

And my answer is that any policy of "enhanced interrogation" will engender more catastrophes and loss of innocent lives than it could ever prevent.   Violence begets violence.
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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schmikbob View Drop Down
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I think it's all a matter of degrees and gray areas.  There are somes things that are clearly torture and reek of evil.  There are other things that some classify as torture and some do not.  (sleep deprivation for one) 
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umhalil View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

Originally posted by abuayisha abuayisha wrote:

Are we as a society prepared to prevent a looming catastrophe by subjecting a murderer to enhanced interrogation in order to get answers that may save innocent lives?

And my answer is that any policy of "enhanced interrogation" will engender more catastrophes and loss of innocent lives than it could ever prevent.   Violence begets violence.

Well said!Clap
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umhalil View Drop Down
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Points: 58 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote umhalil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2011 at 8:19pm
Originally posted by abuayisha abuayisha wrote:

Well Umhalil, one form of terrorism that concerns me a great deal, since I am a Muslim, is ideological sectarian killing, where worshipers in the masjid are machine gunned to death simply because they have different beliefs.  Are the ones behind the curtain responsible for this also?  The recent murders in Norway; was this also caused by the one behind the curtain?  Perpetrators of such violence are without responsibility because of the one behind the curtain?
Hayfa, I think the method of torture is for another debate.  My question is really regarding the Norway shooter, who has admitted killing all those innocent people and acknowledged that other cells exist.  Are we as a society prepared to prevent a looming catastrophe by subjecting a murderer to enhanced interrogation in order to get answers that may save innocent lives?  This proposal is not out of cruelty and a desire to inflict pain, but to save lives. 
Dearest,please do not twist my meaning.I think you know what I meant by 'the one's behind the curtain'.(I will have to say the word-Zionists).I am Muslim also.I put all my trust in Allah.Please do not misunderstand me--I am not saying you do not put your trust in Allah.Please my dearest-"enhanced interrorgation" is just a kinder and gentler word for tortue.Such as the murders,nay,genocide of innocent people in,for example,Iraq.
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abuayisha View Drop Down
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Points: 5105 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abuayisha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 August 2011 at 12:12am

...twisting your meaning?  Not at all, but if "Zionist" is your answer to my questions posed to you, well, I guess we'll have to leave it there.

"And my answer is that any policy of "enhanced interrogation" will engender more catastrophes and loss of innocent lives than it could ever prevent.   Violence begets violence." 

 If this is your position, fair enough, but given the circumstances I believe your moral compass is flawed.  Let us not forget that the Norway shooter is an avowed murderer.  Are you telling me his discomfort is more important than saving innocent lives?


Edited by abuayisha - 10 August 2011 at 12:13am
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umhalil View Drop Down
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Originally posted by abuayisha abuayisha wrote:

...twisting your meaning?  Not at all, but if "Zionist" is your answer to my questions posed to you, well, I guess we'll have to leave it there.

"And my answer is that any policy of "enhanced interrogation" will engender more catastrophes and loss of innocent lives than it could ever prevent.   Violence begets violence." 

 If this is your position, fair enough, but given the circumstances I believe your moral compass is flawed.  Let us not forget that the Norway shooter is an avowed murderer.  Are you telling me his discomfort is more important than saving innocent lives?
Torture, 'saving innocent lives' is a crap excuse and I think you know that.It's a justification to torture anyone a gov'nt or country doesn't like.Let's forget about that guy in Norway in this discussion about torture.Let me make it very simple: Would YOU want to be tortured? Yes,or no.Simple answer to a simple question.Really think what is done to a person under torture.If I am torturing you..I want you to say something specific.Right?But you won't because you did not do what you are suspected of doing.To end the torture,this extreme agony and pain,mentally,physically..and this could go on for years ya know..for as long as you don't give me (the torturer)the answer I want,I cut off one of your fingers,for example.You don't want to say what I want you to say,because you are innocent.So,I put electrodes to your genitals...or bring you to the brink of death,then bring you back..I think your understanding where I am  coming from now,I hope. I will NEVER believe,because I have studied this ,that torture brings ANY truthful information from the one being tortured.Never.Salam.
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abuayisha View Drop Down
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Points: 5105 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abuayisha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 August 2011 at 8:30am
  This debate is not about using torture to terrorize people for purposes of making them submit to a given government's agenda, nor is it punish someone we don't like for political reasons or extract a confession we speculate an individual may be withholding.  I am speaking of very specific and limited uses of torture to gather intelligence from a person such as the Norway mass murderer.  We know he massacred innocent people and he boasted of other cells.  Intelligence extracted from the Norway shooter may very well prove to save innocent lives.  Sometimes our principles cloud good judgment.
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umhalil View Drop Down
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Points: 58 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote umhalil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 August 2011 at 10:05am
Originally posted by abuayisha abuayisha wrote:

  This debate is not about using torture to terrorize people for purposes of making them submit to a given government's agenda, nor is it punish someone we don't like for political reasons or extract a confession we speculate an individual may be withholding.  I am speaking of very specific and limited uses of torture to gather intelligence from a person such as the Norway mass murderer.  We know he massacred innocent people and he boasted of other cells.  Intelligence extracted from the Norway shooter may very well prove to save innocent lives.  Sometimes our principles cloud good judgment.
Then I shall leave the debate..because it is my firm belief that torture is vile,evil and wrong,plus it doesn't work,and under NO circumstances should be used..Peace and be well.Smile
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