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schmikbob View Drop Down
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Points: 526 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote schmikbob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 April 2011 at 4:27pm

Issa, I have some news for you and the rest of the contributors to this thread.  The first item in your opening statement was about the supposed "Immaculate Conception" of Mary.  It's simply amazing to me that most of the Christians out there have no idea that this has absolutely nothing to do with dogma of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.  The "Immaculate Conception" has to do with Mary supposedly being free from "original sin" and nothing to do with whether or not she was a virgin at the time of Christ's birth.    
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honeto View Drop Down
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Points: 2487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 April 2011 at 6:14pm
Originally posted by bunter bunter wrote:

Originally posted by honeto honeto wrote:

You wrote: " The point is that Jesus is both man and God." Where did that come from and how is that different from similar claims by other religions that you probably do not accept, the Hindu concept in particular where God is told to have come down in various forms, both as man and animal. Also it does raise another valid question. Why during the period covering the OT prophets God is never mentioned to have come down in form of one of His own creation? Nowhere in the OT I find where awaited Massiah was told to be God himself.

This is a fair but difficult question and no Christian will say other that God is one. But in the NT we frequently read that Jesus claims to be one with God. For example we read in John 10:28-32 NIV "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father�s hand. I and the Father are one.� Thus Jesus here claims to be God and who but God can redeem us?

Now a common objection to the idea that God is one in three and three in one is that it cannot be understood and of course I agree with that but at the same time I do not make my own mind the measure of all things and I accept in faith the triune God.

To see what I mean here about setting limits with our puny minds I might ask you what does it mean if God is one, without equals etc. Does it mean he sits in a chair somewhere and I can identify him as one person or is he everywhere or what? If he is one person in the sense that we might understand it how can he listen to a billion prayers and in the case of Islam listen to a billion people all saying the same prayers and saying it several time over. If God is everywhere its then hard to see he is one?
bunter,
I think those quotes you mentioned can be seen very differently than just the way you see them, and let me explain.
"I give them eternal life" can also mean, that I brought salvation, which is eternal life. Now, all of the prophets did that, and those who listened and followed them got "eternal life" or salvation. Those who did not, got eternal condemnation.
"I and Father are one" can also be seen simply as being one with God in righteousness. And by following God's commands we are told we will be with God, on the side of Goodness.
There are more clear and straight forward verses quoted to Jesus that say: "my Father is Greater than I" or I am returning to my God and your God".  These more clear statements about Jesus claiming to have a God who is Greater than him prove that there is something else is going on in the book.
I understand and accept that our minds have limits and we cannot comprehend things around us let alone God, who is the Creator of All. It is that reason that as a Muslim, one who submit to One and only God, we only say about God what God Himself has told us through His prophets.
God has guided mankind since Adam toward Himself. It is through this guidance that a true believer discovers the truth about His Creator.
God is All Knowing thus His statements and accounts do not contradict itself. If anything that is said to be His word contradicts within itself, it is a proof that either it is not from God, or its words or contents have been altered.
Simple and truthful as that!
Hasan
 
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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IssaEl999 View Drop Down
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Points: 336 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IssaEl999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2011 at 12:25pm
Originally posted by schmikbob schmikbob wrote:

Issa, I have some news for you and the rest of the contributors to this thread.  The first item in your opening statement was about the supposed "Immaculate Conception" of Mary.  It's simply amazing to me that most of the Christians out there have no idea that this has absolutely nothing to do with dogma of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.  The "Immaculate Conception" has to do with Mary supposedly being free from "original sin" and nothing to do with whether or not she was a virgin at the time of Christ's birth.    

 
 
And You Speak Of Intelligent Framework.    ..........
El's Holy Qur'aan , States In Chapter 17 ; 81 , '' And Say ; Truth Has ( Now ) Arrived , And Falsehood Perished ; For Falsehood Is ( By Its Nature ) Bound To Perish (81 ) .
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schmikbob View Drop Down
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Points: 526 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote schmikbob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 April 2011 at 6:59am
Issa, what are you referring to with "and You Speak Of Intelligent Framework.    .........."
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KelvinC View Drop Down
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Points: 1 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KelvinC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2011 at 12:45am
I heard this news which mentions the issue about male circumcision. When we talk about circumcision it's a surgical procedure that is done when the child started to reach the right age. But, in the news that I've heard they mentioned that  Lloyd Schofield, a San Francisco resident, has productively gathered 7,700 legitimate signatures in his campaign to legally ban male circumcision. It was verified by election administrators that his suggestion will be on the city's Nov ballot. However, he is being opposed by United States Representative Brad Sherman (D-Calif.), who is suggesting a bill, referred to as the Religious and Parental Rights Defense Act of 2011, which seeks to prevent San Francisco and other municipalities from prohibiting circumcision. I read this here: San Francisco to vote on circumcision issue, newstype.com

Edited by KelvinC - 18 June 2011 at 12:45am
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honeto View Drop Down
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Points: 2487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2011 at 5:36pm
Originally posted by bunter bunter wrote:

Originally posted by IssaEl999 IssaEl999 wrote:

Don't Let My Name Fool You , I'm Not Muslims . You Speak Of Prayers '' Yes '' My Overstanding 90% Christian Don't Pray Until Sunday . And Most Christian Believe God Rested On The Seventh Day Which Is Sunday According To Them '' Right '' So The Christian God Is A Sleep / Resting On The Day Christian  Are Praying To Him . Thing That Make You Go Hummmmm . You Keep Trying To Prove To People How Smart You're When In Fact  Your Missing The Point Like The One Above.

Your name fools no one and my question can be attempted by anyone. The trouble with people like you who think their smart is that they end up deluding themselves. Do you suppose that every text ever written must be taken entirely literally? If yes then you are bigger fool that I first thought and if not please explain how you distinguish the literal from other forms of text?

I am not expecting any answer as so nowhere can I find an answer from you to any question any one has asked.
 
Bunter,
care to share your views about the following, how do you take them?

2 Corinthians 11:31

Common English Bible (CEB)

31 "The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, ..."

Jesus is quoted to have said: 
John 14:28
" ........because the Father is greater than me."
 
Hasan
 
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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bunter View Drop Down
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Points: 123 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bunter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 July 2011 at 3:21pm
For Hasan - if one wants to appreciate how the trinity comes about you might care to examine.

Who does the whole of Scripture proclaim to be God?
Ephesians 4:6 proclaims the Father to be God.
Titus 2:13; John 1:1,14; 20:28 proclaim the Son to be God.
Acts 5:3-4 proclaims the Holy Spirit to be God.
And of course Deuteronomy 4:35 proclaims God to be the one, true God.

It is not really about understaning it but about what the scripture says and of course what you understand a person, in this ace God implies
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honeto View Drop Down
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Points: 2487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 July 2011 at 9:46am
To Bunter,
that's my point: contents of the same book contradict each other. A proof that in it's such conflicting state it cannot be claimed to be pure word of God. If it was pure word of God, it would not do so rather it will be in absolute agreement within itself.
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 13 July 2011 at 9:48am
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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