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rami 
Moderator Group 
Male Joined: 01 March 2000 Status: Offline Points: 2549 |
 Posted: 26 March 2005 at 4:47am |
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Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem
>>> To brother Rami that is one shafi'i view on female circumcision there is also another view; it isn't required and many of those who believe it is now say that has been abrogated by circumstances such as many Muslims going to extremes with what is done (the sunnipath fatwa posted has more info on this)<<< Let us first establish the fact that it is required in the shafii madhhab, second the only reason why it is not recomended is becouse the proper practice of the required act has almost been lost. This is not a different rulling but a dispensation which a person may follow if he chooses, almost does not mean entirely and it is a general statement. It does not abrogate the Shafii decision. I have clearly shown that 3 out of the four madhabs at least consider it adab ie courtesy, and i dont know what the maliki position is, so the matter can never be declared haram or a bidah or unislamic or any other wishfull label. |
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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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rami
Moderator Group
Male Joined: 01 March 2000 Status: Offline Points: 2549 |
Posted: 26 March 2005 at 2:54am |
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Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem
assalamu alaikum chastebeauty the rulings i gave are those of the four madhabs, this is the traditional islamic view, if you believe something other than this you are welcome to your opnion but you have no right to accuse the four madhhabs and Great scholars like Imam al Nawawi who was a mujtahid of Biddah. If you dont know the place of the madhabs in islam what good will a hadith do you, do you have the neccesary qualafications in Usul al Fiqh to be able to derive a fatwa from it? Edited by rami |
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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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chastebeauty
Newbie 
Joined: 11 March 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 24 |
Posted: 25 March 2005 at 11:28pm |
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Salamualaykum It so interesting and sad to see so called Muslims are busy consoling themselves over mistakes they are clearly aware is unislamic and uncalled for, upon all, encouraging others to make the same mistakes they made...Authubillah!!! May Allah save us from their sharr for indeed what they are encouraging is bida'a. The prophet SAW was sent to give a perfect guide on how we should live our lives(sunnah), how come there is no authentic hadith proving he circumcised his daughters or wives?.....Get real and be sober for you went thru pain unnecessarily and seek for forgiveness for those you misled (Ameenah9999 & co). Great job herjihad....U got good points there (they kept contradicting themsleves Salam!!! |
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Sophie_J
Starter
Joined: 25 March 2005 Status: Offline Points: 5 |
Posted: 25 March 2005 at 1:58pm |
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Asalaamu Alaykum
a warning for you, a sister and I were harassed by circumcision [Moderator Edited] in the past as they came into our group on hijab issues; the sister and I found that these people have groups on yahoo where all the articles posted by 'ameenah99999' are posted; these groups are full of nasty pornographic pictures of women and girls being mutilated and abused;[Moderator Edited] To brother Rami that is one shafi'i view on female circumcision there is also another view; it isn't required and many of those who believe it is now say that has been abrogated by circumstances such as many Muslims going to extremes with what is done (the sunnipath fatwa posted has more info on this) Sophie Please do not use terms like that again. Your post is highly speculative, please do not slander forum members it will not be tolerated. Rami. Edited by rami |
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rami
Moderator Group
Male Joined: 01 March 2000 Status: Offline Points: 2549 |
Posted: 24 March 2005 at 5:47am |
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Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem asslamu alaikum The following is the shafii ruling on female circumcision as found in Reliance of the Traveller. e4.3 Circumcision is obligatory (O:for both men and women. For men it consists of removing the prepuce from the penis, and for women, removing the prepuse (Ar. bazr) of the clitoris (n: not the clitoris itself, as some mistaken assert). (A: Hanbalis hold that circumcision of a women is not obligatory but sunna, while Hanafis consider it a mere courtesy to the husband). (p.59) |
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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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rami
Moderator Group
Male Joined: 01 March 2000 Status: Offline Points: 2549 |
Posted: 23 March 2005 at 10:41pm |
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Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem
Is this Nasir al-Albani? if so he is an unacceptable authority in traditional Islam ie the four schools of thought and there is real doubt over his scholarship and qualafications ie Ijazah as a muhadith. If it is Nasir al-Albani as i am assuming, i do not want to turn this thread into a discussion about him. as i stated earlier the above view is that of the shafii and hanafi madhhabs given by scholars from those madhhabs who have proper ijazah to do so although i am not familiar with "Sister Shazia Ahmad". if you require further clafirication on the issue please ask them it is a Q&A site after all. If you would like to know more about the scholars behind Sunnipath.com here is the link Just to add, "' Umdat al-Salik wa 'Uddat al-Nasik (Reliance of the Traveller and tools of the Worshipper) is a classic manual of fiqh. It represents the fiqh rulings according to the Shafi'I school of jurisprudence." It is certified by "Al Azhar". It represents an explanative interpretation of 'Umdat al-salik, a classic Sunni manual of sacred law by Ahmad Ibn Naqib al-Misri (d769/1368) that comprises the work of Imam Nawawi, the great thirteenth century Shaffi hadith scholar and juriprudent (expert in fiqh). Ibn Naqibs famous handbook carefully summarizes the onclusions of Nawawi's legal encyclopidia al-Majmu on all aspects of practicing Islam, from prayer, marriage, jihad, and inheritence to other facets of islamic life. The book contains over six thousand rullings of islamic law, more than any other english refrence volume.Of the 136 works drawn upon in its commentary and appendices, 134 are in the original Arabic. Basicaly the rullings i gave above are those of traditional sunni islam not the opinions of people! I also have a copy. Edited by rami |
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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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herjihad
Senior Member
Joined: 26 January 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2473 |
Posted: 23 March 2005 at 6:49pm |
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Bismillah, The supporters of this are ethnocentrically bound to their culture's influence on their Islaam. Many of the statements the supporters have posted here are not well thought out. (What would the woman do if the man who raped her were circumsised?!?) The woman who says she still enjoys being with her husband but is freed from unwanted sexual thoughts, and the experience is made more spiritual? A confused picture is given by this. The operation was physically very painful, but you would do it again because it was also spiritual? That is not within Islaamic thought to enjoy pain! That is masochism. Have your heard of the people who pierce their back with a large hook and hang themselves up like meat? They speak of this euphoric experience you do also. And neither one of the descriptions of pain ectasy sounds like an action in any way encouraged in our faith. (If you have a problem with too many sexual thoughts, prayer and fasting are some Islaamic suggestions.) Islaamic circumsion is not intended to kill sexuality. If Allah, SWT, wanted us to be asexual, Allah, SWT, would have created us that way. Muslims have been much more open in discussions of sexuality than any church meeting I have ever attended. It is an issue to be discussed based on need for knowledge, and it is. The Christian tradition for years was that the subject of sexuality was not a religious one, and to be avoided. If you want to be bound to cultural practices in this way, it is up to you. I have my own ethnocetrisms that I just have to keep also. AlHamdulilah, mine hurt a whole lot less than yours. |
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Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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AhmadJoyia
Senior Member 
Joined: 20 March 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1647 |
Posted: 22 March 2005 at 6:47am |
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A hadith on the topic of female circumcision has been attributed to the Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon Him), according to which he said: "Circumcision is a Sunnah for men, and an honour for women," but there is some debate as to the authenticity of this hadith. See Silsilah al-Ahadith al-Da�ifah by al-Albani, no. 1935.
The only hadith narrated to support the female circumcision is itself doubtful. Secondly, this is a matter whose applicability is vastly spread among large proportion of population of muslim ummah ( roughly around 50%). This calls for multiple sources of authentic sunnah from the Prophet himself to support any view. Similarly on the application of circumcision, the reference itself is declaring the hadith as 'daif'. (Reported by Abu Dawud in al-Sunan, Kitab al-Adab; he said this hadith is da�if). As I see, different people quoting various scholars to provide final "verdict" on the matter without giving details of how they reached at the decision; seems quite uncomfortable to me. Even, Rami, the passage you quoted from some Q/A session, does the same error where despite the enquirer is clearly asking for the legal evidence "Can you shed some light on this and give the legal proofs for this ruling?!" This is a typical way of responses that I have seen on most of the websites that have been quoted above, except one which provides some good discussion on the topic. Remember, authenticity of a hadith is the most important parameter that must be confirmed before it is quoted what to talk about knowingly quoting unauthentic ones. All "hukums" or opinons of scholars become challangeable if they don't support their views with authentic sources. Similarly, quoting from some book of a scholar is meaningless untill the book also provides references from the original sources of Quran and authentic Sunnah. Allah knows the best. |
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