Holy Qur'an and Jesus' Trinity

Egwpisteuw wrote: Nonsense. You obviously neglected to keep reading:   31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, �I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?� 33The Jews answered Him, �For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.� John 10:31-33   The Jews who were 1.) physically present; 2.) contemporaries of Jesus; 3.)of the same cultural and linguistic milieu as Jesus; took Jesus' statement in John 10:30 "I and the Father are one" to mean that he was declaring himself to be God.   Jesus declared His Deity in John 10:30. To deny it is ludicrous.

 
 "...You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.� John 10:31-33

 You remind me one of the articles written by Brother Sami.

 Brother Sami:

 The Jewish Accusations

 One common argument that Christians raise is that certain Jews accused him of committing blasphemy, making himself equal to God, and claiming to be God, and for this they wanted to stone him. As a result of this Christians therefore claim that since the Jews accused him of making such statements, then Jesus must have made these claims.

 Indeed such logic is very faulty and shows the sheer desperation of some Christians, for instance would a judge hold a defendant guilty simply based on someone else's accusation? Of course not! Just because someone accuses you of something does not mean the accusation is true, this is common sense, yet Christians want us to throw out or common sense and simply accept the Jewish accusation.

 What makes this more interesting is that Christians are very inconsistent, yes, some Jews accused him of blasphemy, but the Jews have accused Jesus of much worst, and we can find these accusations within the Talmud, for instance we read:

R. Shimeaon ben 'Azzai said: I found a genealogical roll in Jerusalem wherein was recorded, "Such-an-one is a ****** of an adulteress."

MISHNAH.[104b] If one writes on his flesh, he is culpable; He who scratches a mark on his flesh. He who scratches a mark on his flesh, [etc.] It was taught, R. Eliezar said to the sages: But did not Ben Stada bring forth witchcraft from Egypt by means of scratches [in the form of charms] upon his flesh? He was a fool, answered they, proof cannot be adduced from fools. [Was he then the son of Stada: surely he was the son of Pandira? - Said R. Hisda: The husband was Stada, the paramour was Pandira. But the husband was Pappos b. Judah? - his mother was Stada. But his mother was Miriam the hairdresser? - It is as we said in Pumbeditha: This is one has been unfaithful to (lit., 'turned away from'- satath da) her husband.] (Shabbath 104b)

R. Papa said: When the Mishnah states a MESITH IS A HEDYOT, it is only in respect of hiding witnesses. For it has been taught: And for all others for whom the Torah decrees death, witnesses are not hidden, excepting for this one. How is it done? - A light is lit in an inner chamber, the witnesses are hidden in an outer one [which is in darkness], so that they can see and hear him, but he cannot see them. Then the person he wishes to seduce says to him, "Tell me privately what thou hast proposed to me"; and he does so. Then he remonstrates; "But how shall we forsake our God in Heaven, and serve idols?" If he retracts, it is well. But if he answers: "It is our duty and seemly for us," the witnesses who were listening outside bring him to Beth din, and have him stoned. ["And thus they did to Ben Stada in Lydda, and they hung him on the even of Passover." Ben Stada was Ben Pandira. R. Hisda said: The husband was Stada, the paramour Pandira. But as not the husband Pappos b. Judah? - His mother's name was Stada. But his mother was Miriam, a dresser of woman's hair? - As they say in Pumpbaditha, This woman has turned away (satath da) from her husband, (i.e. committed adultery).]

And it is tradition: On the eve of Passover they hung Jeshu [the Nazarene]. And the crier went forth before him forty days (saying), [Jeshu the Nazarene] goeth forth to be stoned, because he hath practiced magic and deceived and led Israel astray. Anyone who knoweth aught in his favor, let him come and declare concerning him. And they found naught in his favor. And they hung him on the eve of the Passover. Ulla said, 'Would it be supposed that [Jeshu the Nazarene] a revolutionary, had aught in his favor?' He was a deceiver and the Merciful (i.e. God) hath said (Deut. xiii 8), ?Thou shalt not spare, neither shalt thou conceal him.' But it was different with [Jeshu the Nazarene] for he was near the kingdom.'" (Sanhedrin 43a)

 So notice, certain Jews also accused Jesus of being a ****** child, the son of Mary who committed adultery, and on top of that they claim that Jesus practiced magic! Why do Christians not accept these accusations? If Christians want to be consistent then they should also accept this filthy accusations about Jesus, but off course they wont, because Christians lack consistency and an honest method of argumentation, they will only pick and choose which Jewish accusations suit them.

 So with that said let us now quote the Jewish accusations against Jesus, the ones the Christians like to use, and the ones the Christians like to agree with, and they are as follows:

 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. (John 10:29-33)

So does this Jewish accusation hold any weight? Well as in any other case, whenever a witness makes a claim, the first thing you do is check if the witness is even competent enough to be trusted. So are these certain Jews even to be trusted in the first place? Well, let us let Jesus answer that question:

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8:44)

 So Jesus calls his accusers LIARS, and the son of the devil, who is the father of liars! What else does Jesus say about his accusers:

He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. (Mark 7:6-9)

So according to Jesus his accusers are hypocrites, they do not follow their Torah, rather they throw it away, and use their own man made traditions. So it is quite clear that these accusers are not competent enough to be trusted, nor is their speech to be taken as evidence, let us summarize what we know about these accusers so far:

-They are Liars

-They are hypocrites

-They are the sons of the devil

-They are murderers

-They do not follow God's commands, rather they throw it away

-They follow their own man made traditions in the place of God's commands

Wow! And these are the people whom the Christians want us to believe?! I don't think so. Now having said all of this, why don't we go to what the BELIEVERS said about Jesus? The People who actually believed in Jesus, and were not against him, why don't go to what they said? I advise all readers to go and read the following links, which shows what the BELIEVERS were saying about Jesus:

http://muslim-responses.com/Son_of_God_and_Messiah/Son_of_God_and_Messiah_

http://muslim-responses.com/Just_a_Prophet/Just_a_Prophet_

So let us see Jesus' defence, what he said in response to the accusations, and this is his defence:

 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?  (John 10:32-36)

So this is Jesus' defence, as you can notice Jesus does not accept their accusation, rather he rejects their accusation, notice what he says:

Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?  

So Jesus rejects their accusation, rather he tells them I CALL MYSELF THE SON OF GOD, and as anyone knows, the term son of God does not make you God, rather it made you a servant of God. If you also notice, Jesus uses some irony with them, he tells these Jews that they are called gods, yet I call myself the son of God and you claim I am blaspheming and making myself God?! So this is what we have here:

Pharisee: You Jesus made blasphemy!

Jesus: Why?

Pharisee: You make yourself to be God

Jesus: I call myself the Son of God, yet you are called gods.

Pharisee: stoneeeeeee him!

This is not the only place where Jesus defends himself, there was another time where Jesus was forced to defend himself, and his defence was the following:

But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. (John 8:40)

Here Jesus defends himself again, and notice what he says, you want to kill me, A MAN who has told you the truth, the truth I HAVE HEARD FROM GOD! So Jesus does two things, he tells them that he is a man, and he makes sure to distinguish and separate himself from God!

More interestingly the word for man that is used here is ANTHROPOS in the Greek, this specific word is used to distinguish man from God, basically when someone is called ANTHROPHOS, it is meant to separate him from the divine, and to let everyone know that this person is neither divine, nor is he God! So the word that Jesus uses is a specific word that is specifically meant to allow the people to know that Jesus is not divine, rather he is separate from the divine, and separate from God!

So far we have seen that the accusers are not competent witnesses, and we have also seen that Jesus REJECTED their accusations. So let us now see the real reason as to why these certain Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy, was it really for blasphemy, or was it for other reasons? Well let us let Jesus speak for himself:

The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. (John 7:7)

So Jesus gives the reasons as to why the people hate him, and as you can notice, it is not because he claims to be God, rather it is because he exposes their evils! If anyone has read the four Gospels, then one will see that Jesus time and time again exposed the Pharisees. Jesus exposed the Pharisees for their corruption, hypocrisy, and by doing so he essentially became a major threat against them. The Pharisees had money, power, and were in control of their people, yet Jesus' preaching was a major threat to them, and had the potential to destroy them, hence they had to get rid of Jesus. Now what better way to get of Jesus? Well, you accuse the man of false crimes, and for the Jews blasphemy was one of the worst crimes, it was even much much worst for a man to claim he was God, and then double that with accusing this man of being a false Messiah! In fact if we read the book of Acts, we will see that the Pharisees precisely did this! We read:

Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God. And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council, And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law: For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us. (Acts 6:11-14)

As you can see, these certain Jews started stirring up the people against the apostles, making false accusations against the apostles that they were preaching that Jesus would destroy their place, and change the laws of Moses. Notice how these Jews also brought FALSE WITNESSES who basically made things up!

So essentially these Jews did the same thing with Jesus, they set up false lies against him, they did so because he was a major threat to him, and they had to get rid of this threat, and the only way to get rid of this threat was by producing false claims against the man, thankfully Allah saved Jesus from their plans and saved him from the cross!

So to summarize what we have:

-Certain Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy, making himself God

-These Jews are not even competent to be trusted

-Jesus rejected their accusations

-Jesus said that the reason why they hated him was because he exposed their evils, not because he claimed to be God

-Jesus was a threat against the Pharisees, hence they began to create lies against Jesus, so they could use these lies as an excuse to murder him

-We have evidence that these Jews did create lies, and falsehoods against apostles of Jesus.

So in conclusion the Jewish accusations mean nothing, rather the Jewish accusations serve as arguments against the divinity of Jesus as he rejected their claims, so I advise Christians to get better arguments.

And Allah Knows Best!