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truthseeker100 View Drop Down
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Points: 68 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthseeker100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2010 at 4:16pm
Originally posted by schmikbob schmikbob wrote:

OK, lets move very slowly.  The Ptolemaic model of the universe, which is generally regarded as the start of astronomy was an Earch centered model.  That is it put the Earth at the center of the universe and had the planets and the sun revolving around it in there own orbits in epicycles.  This tortuous system was used because it explained previously unexplained observations like retrograde motion and changes in planetary brightness.  We can go back even further than this to see the first inklings of Earth centered thought but for now this will suffice.  Now, as you can see, this system had the sun orbiting about the earth in about the first century of the first millenium.  So, as you can see, your statement that the Quran predated the modern discovery of solar motion "more than 1400 years ago without any advanced astronomical instrument of the modern science" is not really accurate at all.  The solar motion that was observed in 1785 by Herschel was the motion of our entire solar system through space.  I hope this is not what you are trying to say these Quranic verses actually indicate because that would stretch my imagination to it's breaking point.   

Well, it is not just the sun, see other verses. Verse 36:40 says, �Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law).�

036.038
YUSUFALI: And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.
PICKTHAL: And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.
SHAKIR: And the sun runs on to a term appointed for it; that is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing.

036.039
YUSUFALI: And the Moon,- We have measured for her mansions (to traverse) till she returns like the old (and withered) lower part of a date-stalk.
PICKTHAL: And for the moon We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shrivelled palm-leaf.
SHAKIR: And (as for) the moon, We have ordained for it stages till it becomes again as an old dry palm branch.

036.040
YUSUFALI: It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law).
PICKTHAL: It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
SHAKIR: Neither is it allowable to the sun that it should overtake the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day; and all float on in a sphere.

Earlier I wrote about the sun�s motion commenting on the modern scientific theory and its predecessor. The Qur�an doesn�t say that the sun orbits the earth as per your description of the knowledge of the first century of the first millennium.

This section is strictly for the learners. I think I tried to give you some information as you asked for. So, take what you can, and leave what you cannot.
And, behold, with every hardship comes ease:
Qur'an 94: 5
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schmikbob View Drop Down
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Points: 526 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote schmikbob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2010 at 6:59pm
Truthseeker100, my intent here is not to insult anyone's intelligence.  All I wish is for you to show me which verses you think show foreknowledge of scientific discoveries of the modern era.  I think it is not clear, at least to me, that the Quran stretches beyond the scientific knowledge of the 7th century.  These verses seem to indicate that the sun and the moon have different phases or cycles which doesn't imply anything beyond an Earth-centered model. 
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schmikbob View Drop Down
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Points: 526 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote schmikbob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 September 2010 at 8:34pm
Come now Truthseeker, I await some answer.  Please don't tell me you have none.
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truthseeker100 View Drop Down
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Points: 68 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthseeker100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 September 2010 at 10:15am
Originally posted by schmikbob schmikbob wrote:

These verses seem to indicate that the sun and the moon have different phases or cycles which doesn't imply anything beyond an Earth-centered model. 

Please read my last post where I mentioned that the Qur�an doesn�t say that the sun orbits the earth. So, these verses don�t refer to Earth-centered model. Is that clear?

And, behold, with every hardship comes ease:
Qur'an 94: 5
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schmikbob View Drop Down
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Points: 526 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote schmikbob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 September 2010 at 8:13am

Oh yes, very clear.  You are saying that the Quran doesn't refer to an Earth-centered model.  What then are you saying these verses do refer to??  They do seem to refer to periodicity.  In most cases that would refer to either an Earth centered model or a sun centered model with the sun moving within the galaxy.  "All translations clearly state that the sun is in motion. How was the Qur�an able to state it more than 1400 years ago without any advanced astronomical instrument of the modern science?"  Since you have very clearly stated that the Quran miraculously predicts the sun centered model of more modern times, you must have some evidence to make you believe that this motion refers to the sun's motion through the galaxy.  I would love to see this evidence that you have because, I assure you, nobody else with an understanding of astronomy or logic has seen it. 
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truthseeker100 View Drop Down
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Points: 68 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthseeker100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 September 2010 at 7:33pm
Originally posted by schmikbob schmikbob wrote:

Oh yes, very clear.  You are saying that the Quran doesn't refer to an Earth-centered model.  What then are you saying these verses do refer to??  They do seem to refer to periodicity.  In most cases that would refer to either an Earth centered model or a sun centered model with the sun moving within the galaxy. 

 

In this age of science and technology, some research would eliminate any assumption or guess on the subject.  

So what does the modern science, in fact the latest research, say with regards to the sun�s motion and other celestial bodies?

According to the current theory, voluminous bodies exert gravitational force on the smaller bodies. Moon orbits around the earth. The earth and other planets in the solar system orbit around the sun. There exists a still bigger system around which the sun and the solar system orbit. The astronomical observations of our age have found that the sun is moving with a speed of 720,000 kph towards the star Vega in an orbit called the solar apex.

The most important point is that the stars, planets, and other bodies in space orbit in a very controlled fashion; they don�t strike one another. There is perfect harmony in their movement. These minute details about such orbits are available only by modern astronomical equipments.

In addition to the verses quoted earlier, at another place the Qur�an says:

�By the sky full of paths and orbits.� (Surat adh-Dhariyat, 7)

As I said in my first post in this thread, the Qur�an is primarily the book of guidance. It is not a book of science; it is rather a book of signs to guide humanity. So, you don�t see there the systematic progress of science from geocentric to heliocentric solar system, nor do you see the calculation of the sun�s speed in the modern-day solar system. But, you see the signs, revealed more than 14 centuries ago that contain no contradiction with the scientific facts of today.

Qur�an says:

041.053

YUSUFALI: Soon will We show them our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?

PICKTHAL: We shall show them Our portents on the horizons and within themselves until it will be manifest unto them that it is the Truth. Doth not thy Lord suffice, since He is Witness over all things?
 
SHAKIR: We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient as regards your Lord that He is a witness over all things?
And, behold, with every hardship comes ease:
Qur'an 94: 5
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Points: 526 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote schmikbob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 September 2010 at 3:59pm

OK, lets see.  It looks like you now are backing off your earlier statements like "The main point here is that the Qur�an clearly refuted the stationary sun concept more than 1400 years ago." and "All translations clearly state that the sun is in motion. How was the Qur�an able to state it more than 1400 years ago without any advanced astronomical instrument of the modern science?"  Instead you are going with "the signs, revealed more than 14 centuries ago that contain no contradiction with the scientific facts of today."  You do realize that this is a big difference, right? 
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Points: 884 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Friendship Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 September 2010 at 10:18pm
Assalamu alaika Schmikbob etc.

Your post: Instead you are going with "the signs, revealed more than 14 centuries ago that contain no contradiction with the scientific facts of today."
Response: The holy Qur'an narrates events 14 billion years ago comprising of 8 billion years of inorganic and 6 billion years of organic life. Indeed, if there is no contradiction with the scientific facts of today, what of that very JUICE we are looking for today? Yes, indeed the MAIN OBJECTIVE OF THE FINAL MESSAGE IS SALVATION OF MANKIND IN THE MANNER THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL WERE SAVED FROM THE CRUNCHES OF PHARAOH. WHY NOT GO BACK TO THAT GUIDANCE AND STOP BLOODSHED BETWEEN BROTHERS AND SISTERS!  What would have happened to humanity if the heavens and earth disobey Allah!
Friendship.
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