Isaiah 53

Douggg wrote: islamispeace wrote: Conclusion:  Looking at the chapter in context, we can be reasonably sure that it was not referring to Jesus (pbuh).  To answer's Douggie's question, we can't really say who this chapter is referring to, if anyone at all.  It was certainly not Muhammad (pbuh) in this case.  If we listen to the Jews, the "suffering servant" is the nation of Israel.  It is also possible that it is referring to an known historical figure centuries before Jesus (pbuh).  But what is clear is that it is certainly not referring to Jesus. Isaiah 53 presents big problems for Islam. 1.  The person in Isaiah 53 dies and is buried - which is the real reason muslims can't admit that Isaiah 53 is talking about Jesus... because islam says God took Jesus to paradise without him dying. 2.  The person in Isaiah 53 bears the sins of all, which of course is Jesus, but muslims can't admit that - nonetheless, islam still has a problem because islam says other peoples' sins can't be born by another.   Yet read what Isaiah 53:6 says. Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. Doug L.

Doug,
you are the one in problem not anyone else, let me show you how:
You say: "1.  The person in Isaiah 53 dies and is buried"
Aren't you the one who believe Jesus to be God? if so what you are saying is that your God is dead and buried? You don't make sense with that.
You also quoted: "2.  The person in Isaiah 53 bears the sins of all, which of course is Jesus"
I am sorry but that contradicts with what Jesus is quoted to have said in the Bible. Let me quote:

Matthew 12:36 (King James Version)

King James Version (KJV)

If he was to bear the sins of all, the above verse would not have been said. Here is another one that contradicts your quote:

Matthew 5:30
"And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell."

So, my friend in order for something to be valid, it must not contradict within. We saw that what you quoted and what I quoted did contradict, and both those quotes came from one source, the Bible. I don't know for you, but for me there is nothing confusing or unclear.

Oh, and here is something interesting for you, because you said: " Jesus is buried" when you quoted Isaiah.
The NT says he is not and was raised to heaven!
Acts 1
:1"In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2until the day he was taken up to heaven,"

Hasan



Edited by honeto - 29 July 2010 at 4:15pm

Brother Hasan, you make some good points.  If he was God, Jesus would not be buried.  And actually, the Gospels state that his "burial" was only temporary, as his body disappeared and he eventually ascended to heaven.  This is of course contradicting Isaiah 53 also.  

Mansoor_ali wrote: Douggg wrote: Isaiah 53 presents big problems for Islam. 1.  The person in Isaiah 53 dies and is buried - which is the real reason muslims can't admit that Isaiah 53 is talking about Jesus... because islam says God took Jesus to paradise without him dying. 2.  The person in Isaiah 53 bears the sins of all, which of course is Jesus, but muslims can't admit that - nonetheless, islam still has a problem because islam says other peoples' sins can't be born by another.   Yet read what Isaiah 53:6 says. Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. Doug L.  To Doug L.  Visit:  The false interpretation of Isaiah 53 and the lies in the English translations!  Isaiah 52:13 further debunks the crucifixion lie and proves the Islam's Claims.

Hi Mansoor, I went to look at that site.   It appears to me that the author admits that the person in Isaiah 53 is Jesus.    Do you agree with that?

Some of your fellow muslims here have suggested that Isaiah 53 is not about Jesus.   It's okay.   I don't expect uniformity from muslims on all topics.

Okay, back to the link.

The author claims in his main point that the wounds doesn't mean death, thus Jesus did not die on the cross.

However, the author is wrong about the wounds  because those come from the nails driven in Jesus's hands and feet as he was nailed to the cross.  Jesus was also pierced with a spear in his side after he had died (John 20:34).    

In his resurrected body, Jesus showed the disciples those wounds which were positive identification that it was he.

John 20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

The other points of the author are way too lengthily from me to answer each one.    What I didn't see was anything by the author.... that all of our iniquities, as it say in Isaiah 53, were laid upon Jesus (who the author concedes Ishaiah 53 is about Jesus).

This a big time problem for Islam, that someone esle bears the iniquities (sins) of us all.    Did you read anything at that link that addressed that issue?

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


Doug L.


Edited by Douggg - 02 August 2010 at 5:11pm

Doug, by God you are acting like a blind person, let me show you how: You say God cannot die, then you say "He (God) gave himself to, upon whom laid all of our iniquities" You have just said that God cannot die, and God died in a single sentence, in a single breath you uttered the biggest contradiction ever with the biggest consequences, but you cannot calibrate it now, just wait when you will not be given a chance to correct it, you will be told, its too late. I hope and pray that God guide you and you take that chance while you are able to.

Hi Hasan,  in reference to your text that I underlined. 
Coming from a muslim, too.   Muslims say allah means God.    Okay, someone wants to become a musim so he begins the conversion statement...   "There is not any God but God..."    No, no, a muslim says.. "There is not any God but allah."  

So what is your reasoning to complain to me about my statement, when muslims say allah is word for God, but God is not God in muslim conversion statement?

Okay, back to sanity.    God entered this world to fulfill the role of the messiah, who has to be the seed of the woman.   The seed of the woman can die.   You acknowledge that seed of the woman  can die, right?    As the seed of the woman, the flesh that God became (without Him stopped being God) in the role of the messiah, Jesus died on the cross.  

In the role of the messiah, of the seed of the woman, God limited Himself to be exposed to all the temptations of being a man (not Adam man),  and the sufferings and pains.   But he never stopped being God.  

About  Matthew 12:36, you say it is for those who don't accept Jesus. I don't see Jesus said that, you are saying that. He said simply what what i quoted that "36 And I tell you this, you must give an account on judgment day for every idle word you speak. 37 The words you say will either acquit you or condemn you.� These are the words of the New Living Translation Bible. It is true that we sin all the time, knowing and unknowingly, but it is our intention that count. If we have intention of covering up the truth, no way we can make it. Also, the Merciful God is not blood thirsty so require blood for salvation. Also God is in command without any limitations, if He wants to forgive, it's easy as saying 'be' and it is done. But He is a Just God also, and will hold us responsible for our choices, good or bad and will reward what each one of us Justly earned.  God's Mercy and forgiveness will be for those who did not deny Him or His rightful position, humbled themselves in front of Him, obeyed Him, and seek His guidance, help, Mercy and Forgiveness. To them God will forgive their mistakes and admit them in Heaven and provide for them what is Good, forever. This will be their reward for standing up for the truth and making the effort to please their maker by obeying His commands. Hasan

Hasan, I underlined some of your text.  No, it's not that simple.   God cannot just forgive us of our sins (plus, by itself, it doesn't really make changes to our nature) because the other factor is that God is also just.   How can God destroy Satan for his sins, and let others go...and still be just?   

Eternal damnation was never intended for man, but for Satan and his angels that rebelled against God.

Satan's ploy was to infect man with sin, which he did, knowing that God could not judge him (Satan) without God judging man as well.

Why, do you think Satan accuses us night and day?

Look what it says in Revelation 12.   This happens about halfway through the soon-to-come 7 years of the Antichrist.   But it reveals that Satan, the accuser, just like back in Job, is accusing each of us for our sins night and day.     Why so?   Because he doesn't want God to destroy him without having to destroy us as well.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Because the destiny of Satan has been set, God has provided us, who He loves, a way out from the same destiny... by the cross and resurrection, which satisfies God's justice.

But if we reject God's way, then God is going to dish out the same punishment for those who have sinned against Him (which is everyone),  as Satan is going to get.     God is most merciful, but he is not going to compromise his character a just God.

The koran, by muslim admission, originated from an angel of light claiming to be Gabriel - which muslims can't see through that it was Satan, just as he disguised himself as the serpent in the garden, to Eve.    That's why the koran is so intense about denying that Jesus dying on the cross and
resurrected.    Muslims, unwittingly, are Satan's hostages which he hopes that God is not going to destroy him without eternally destroying muslims.

But it's not going to work out that way for Satan, and God is going to judge Satan's religion, Islam, at Gog/Magog.   

For now, I don't think many muslims are willing to open their eyes to Gog/Magog is all about destroying Islam.   Maybe some will, I don't know.  So we will have to wait.    But not for long, I am confident. 


Doug L.



Edited by Douggg - 02 August 2010 at 6:50pm