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Couple of questions

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elijah-boy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elijah-boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2010 at 12:19pm
:False analogy. A government allowing a court to be established to appeal to a minority group that does not effect the majority has nothing in common with a government that establishes a law that condems a particular group with justification that the majority group is not effected.

--- Agree.

:
a. "If the thief was a poor man, who had to steal to provide basics for his family, he will not be given this punishment"
b. "That is a part of all four legals schools followed in Islam. It is simply a fact. I may be wrong, but I think the largest proof comes from the time of Umar (ra) "

--- OK then.
a. Would you be able to list the crimes punishable by death in islam?
c. How islam treats homosexuals and lesbians? Is that something that is punishable? (If so then how)
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Andalus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2010 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by elijah-boy elijah-boy wrote:

ANDALUS:

:The law here in Texas gives the agreived the power also in certain cases.
--- Can you give an example of certain cases?
 
Dont have to. All you need to do is stop parsing everything up. I have the right to wound or kill or allow a thief to go free. As the agreived it is in my hands. If you are unable to derive your answer from that then I am sorry but you are on your own.
 
 
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:I can go further than hand cutting and I am allowed to kill a criminal in the act of the theft.
--- Not sure, are you referring to Texas Laws?
 
 
 
Are you obtuse or are you playing obtuse? I stated such that you should be able to figure out I am speaking of Texas laws.
 
You have what you need to answer your questions.
 
 
 
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:Personally I have no mercy for thieves and could care less if they loose a hand or their life.
---- Nice. Even if it is an apple on the market stand? What about your family jewel was stolen by a 5 year old, will you kill him as well? (Since you advocate that the aggrieved party has the right to carry out the sentence, then I assume you wouldn't mind killing boys or girls with your own gun or hands?)

----
 
 
No "obtuse". Given that you can interpret my statement in two ways, one unreasonable and the othe reasonable, that you choose to go the unreasonable route tells me that you do not seem entirely sincere in a dialogue. Given that any reasonable person would follow the "principle of charity", with all things being equal, and assume the reasonable interpretation. Furthermore, I did state in this thread that circumstances are looked at when a thief is caught according to the shariah. If you did not read it, then you should. If you did, then get a clue. Really.


Edited by Andalus - 13 June 2010 at 12:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xx__Ace__xx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2010 at 1:03pm
Yeah, any law obviously looks at the circumstances and acts according it. Else how's it even a followable law.

That said,
Originally posted by elijah-boy elijah-boy wrote:

---- Nice. Even if it is an apple on the market stand? What about your family jewel was stolen by a 5 year old, will you kill him as well? (Since you advocate that the aggrieved party has the right to carry out the sentence, then I assume you wouldn't mind carry out the sentence yourself?) ----

Elijah, you think a law actually would allow the right to kill a 5-year-old who would hardly have any idea what he's doing? Well, first off, the sentencing of crimes obviously acts on people who are matured enough to understand what they're doing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hayfa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2010 at 7:59pm
I agree with them. Your example of 5 year old is absurd. Children are not held accountable in the same way an adult is. Hello.. are you intentionally being absurd?
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elijah-boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2010 at 9:42pm
:If you are unable to derive your answer from that then I am sorry but you are on your own.

--- I did, I just couldn't believe my eyes. You ask me to believe in your inherent basic goodness and assume that you are reasonable human being and will behave accordingly, but so far I have encountered gently and intelligently speaking humans who say awful things. Hayfa advocates chopping hands off, you couldn't care less for the life of the thieves and whether they live or die, ace condones raping woman if they are behave indecently and sexually provoke other men. I have no grounds so far to assume that there is something good in place. The rest just don't take part in conversation but gladly say nice words about submitting their will to allah and learning the higher purpose of life.
I know you have different opinion, but I'll hold my own.

I just don't understand one thing - why in the midth of discussing things that cause major disagreement, everybody forgets to answer the questions i asked 3 times:
- one about the sources in quran that confirms what chrysalis and andalus was saying about muslims that should not interfere with state laws and choose to live elswhere
- the other about unavailability of sharia law in english.

Elijah.

P.S. I appreciate if somebody can answer the questions about crimes punishable by death in islam and question about lesbians and homosexuals
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elijah-boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2010 at 9:51pm
ACE:

:Elijah, you think a law actually would allow the right to kill a 5-year-old who would hardly have any idea what he's doing?

--- The law says that the aggrieved party decides. Then Andalus says that he personally wouldn't care if thieves live or die. So, in simple words - the severity of the decision of the aggrieved party is basically depends on how pissed the aggrieved party is.
I'd say that Andlaus' answer seemed to me me as an answer of pretty disgruntled person - hence the questions. I agree 5-year old example is way off, but the rest I believe is not.

Again, you asked me to assume that most of the aggrieved parties are thoughtful and reasonable human beings, but that's laughable at best. We might as well abolish constitution and law systems if everybody was that thoughtful and understanding.

Edited by elijah-boy - 13 June 2010 at 9:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xx__Ace__xx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 June 2010 at 4:56am
Originally posted by elijah-boy elijah-boy wrote:

Hayfa advocates chopping hands off, you couldn't care less for the life of the thieves and whether they live or die, ace condones raping woman if they are behave indecently and sexually provoke other men.

^lololol. You still on to that?! Big%20smile
I swear rofl, God knows if you're actually unable to comprehend things I say or whether its just a deliberate false accusation. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if what you claimed of the other two believing turns out false as well.

Originally posted by elijah-boy elijah-boy wrote:

P.S. I appreciate if somebody can answer the questions about crimes punishable by death in islam and question about lesbians and homosexuals

^Good call, I myself lack knowledge in this aspect. Looking forward to some trustable information and clearance. Smile




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elijah-boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 June 2010 at 8:28pm

That concludes the discussion. I've asked 3 times the same questions and that simply means the answer doesn't exist. Your personal opinions will remain opinions without substantiation form the source of your faith.

I think I'll tell you what I think. I think shariaw laws and quran are cerimes against humanity. I think quran is retarded at best. I don't hate you guys or wish you bad, I just want this world to be without hateful religious dogmas, be it judaism or islam. I think it would be a better place without hands being chopped off (and I don't care if Texas laws are similary cruel), without stoning, without death sentences to homosexuals and lesbians, without muhammed who orders woman to service men sexually when they wish to have intercourse, without extermination of infidels, without honor killings, without public executions, without blaming jews for all the sins, without demonizing big satan america and small satan israel, without killings in the name of allah, without religios schools where children have to memorize quotes without questioning them, without campaigns that would send Ayan Hirshi Ali, Salman Rushdy, and dutch cartoonist to hiding in their own countries, without death threats, without hypocrytes (like you guys that make look anti-human thing seem likable, without intolerance to other systems of beleives, without woman being afraid of their sexuality, without perverted muhamed slept with aisha when she was.. you know, without taliban rule where women are caged into the dress where you can hardly breathe and where you obliterated to a household item. 
 
I was born in jewish family with a superiority complex towards anybody else in the world. I was all for the idea that people are equal, providing that I'm as a jew is "a bit more equal". It was a very nice and safe place for my personality. I could say a lot of 'pro' arguments, that were pretty convoluted (same as andalus does), and I was defending judaism vehemently as renouncing ot was renouncing my own life - but at some point I started reading what the old testament says and I felt like vomiting There was genocide, extermination of the whole countries, killings of children and woman, death sentence for homosexulas, hateful language and hatred dripping off the pages towards other people, the book of "shulhan aruh" that prescribed a way of life only for zombi-like beleivers, statements form keading jewish rabbies saying thatjewish blood is superioir and the blood of on-jewish people cannot be transfused to a sacred jewish body, phrases that if as a jew you rape a young girl she deserves to die because seduced sacred jewish spirit, that killing a non-jew is not really a crime, that arabs should be exterminated in order to restore Palestime borders, and so on.
Since then I'm not a jew. I renounce everything that has to do with this hateful religion. I refuse to be a part of it.
But you guys seem to be pretty happy with hateful religion, which makes you in my eyes accomplices to murder. Not literally of course, you won't kill anybody wih your own hands, but you wouldn't mind if somebofy else will do "what is needed".
 


Edited by elijah-boy - 15 June 2010 at 8:32pm
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