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elijah-boy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elijah-boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2010 at 6:04pm
:TO CHRYSALIS

:Muslims have been OBLIGATED to behave as peaceful citizens of whatever land they live in, obey their ruler , follow the laws of the land. Unless they are forced to do something by the laws/ruler that goes against their religious beliefs or fundamentally against the principles of Islam. If that happens - then their duty is not to go & revolt and create issues, but find a peaceful solution. If the government still does not listen to them or make allowances - then they should weigh their priorities and MIGRATE someplace which will allow them to live their life according to Islamic Injunctions.

---- That is reasonable. It is basically saying "If you're uncomfortable with the laws of the country you're living in, consider living somewhere else where you can live the life you see as a best fit for yourself. PLEASE point me to:
a. lines in quran that say so
b. if not found in quran please specify where this information comes from.
c. If "a" is not an option but "b" is I would appreciate if you (or somebody else) can guarantee that quran dosen't say otherwise - that infidels should be considered as enemy, their laws should not be respected, and basically they should be killed.

:So if Canadian Muslims or British Muslims ask the government to allow their religious law to apply to them - they have a democratic/legal right to do so. Non-Muslims needn't freak out like they are freaking out now. Those laws DON'T apply to non-Muslims. YOUR life will not be effected.

----- I can't take that approach. In the same vein the following can be said. Let all jews live in labour camps, somewhere outside of the visible boundaries - your life won't be affected. [This is actually happened in russia].

:All the things you mentioned as being part of Shariah are mostly misconceptions, Genital Mutilation is not part of the Shariah Law
---- You are right, I'll leave genital mutilation aside.

:Under Shariah, the judge is supposed to look into the circumstances of the Thief. If the thief was a poor man, who had to steal to provide basics for his family, he will not be given this punishment !!!
--- same thing, I'd appreciate quotes from the sources.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elijah-boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2010 at 8:54pm
CHRYSALIS:

"Did you know that the punishment of stealing is not as simple as chopping off a hand? Under Shariah, the judge is supposed to look into the circumstances of the Thief. If the thief was a poor man, who had to steal to provide basics for his family, he will not be given this punishment !!! Only a thief who stole with the intention of greed is punished. In today's time this would mean all the big corporate thieves who steal from the public and their shareholders - knowing full well that with the money they have they can hire the best of the lawyers, spend a few years in jail - and enjoy the rest of their lives in luxury. Whilst leaving thier poor victims under mortgage, loans and poverty. "

Hayfa seems to have a completely different opinion about that:

"Thieving: Yes you can loose your hand. Guess what, they have a lot less theft where this law is enforced. We in the Us have tons of "leniency" and we have tons of people on prison and we have tons of repeat offenders. "Leniency" is not decided by the state ( as is here) it is decided by the aggrieved party. Someone must decide. Here it is the state (made of people with their own agendas), in Shariah, it is those who were stolen from. It has to be someone. "

She basically says that in Sharia, when it comes to thieving at least, the justice is handed to the aggrieved party. The decision is in the hands of who was deprived of stolen property.

To my surprise she also thinks that it would be beneficial if we start cutting hands here in United Stated. It's not only her. My roomie (from Pakistan) says the same - it's ok to cut the hands off, it significantly reduces theft.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elijah-boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2010 at 9:29am
TO EVERYBODY

below (what chrysalis wrote) - is very important part for me as it shows that islam can be reasonable. If you can provide me with the answers to the questions I asked below the it'd appreciated:
--------------------------------------------
":Muslims have been OBLIGATED to behave as peaceful citizens of whatever land they live in, obey their ruler , follow the laws of the land. Unless they are forced to do something by the laws/ruler that goes against their religious beliefs or fundamentally against the principles of Islam. If that happens - then their duty is not to go & revolt and create issues, but find a peaceful solution. If the government still does not listen to them or make allowances - then they should weigh their priorities and MIGRATE someplace which will allow them to live their life according to Islamic Injunctions.

---- That is reasonable. It is basically saying "If you're uncomfortable with the laws of the country you're living in, consider living somewhere else where you can live the life you see as a best fit for yourself. PLEASE point me to:
a. lines in quran that say so
b. if not found in quran please specify where this information comes from.
c. If "a" is not an option but "b" is I would appreciate if you (or somebody else) can guarantee that quran dosen't say otherwise - that infidels should be considered as enemy, their laws should not be respected, and basically they should be killed. '
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2010 at 12:13am
Originally posted by elijah-boy elijah-boy wrote:

CHRYSALIS:

"Did you know that the punishment of stealing is not as simple as chopping off a hand? Under Shariah, the judge is supposed to look into the circumstances of the Thief. If the thief was a poor man, who had to steal to provide basics for his family, he will not be given this punishment !!! Only a thief who stole with the intention of greed is punished. In today's time this would mean all the big corporate thieves who steal from the public and their shareholders - knowing full well that with the money they have they can hire the best of the lawyers, spend a few years in jail - and enjoy the rest of their lives in luxury. Whilst leaving thier poor victims under mortgage, loans and poverty. "

Hayfa seems to have a completely different opinion about that:

"Thieving: Yes you can loose your hand. Guess what, they have a lot less theft where this law is enforced. We in the Us have tons of "leniency" and we have tons of people on prison and we have tons of repeat offenders. "Leniency" is not decided by the state ( as is here) it is decided by the aggrieved party. Someone must decide. Here it is the state (made of people with their own agendas), in Shariah, it is those who were stolen from. It has to be someone. "

She basically says that in Sharia, when it comes to thieving at least, the justice is handed to the aggrieved party. The decision is in the hands of who was deprived of stolen property.

To my surprise she also thinks that it would be beneficial if we start cutting hands here in United Stated. It's not only her. My roomie (from Pakistan) says the same - it's ok to cut the hands off, it significantly reduces theft.
The law here in Texas gives the agreived the power also in certain cases. I can go further than hand cutting and I am allowed to kill a criminal in the act of the theft. If you have a chl (concealed hangun license), you can have the option of deadily force when you are out and about away from your home and property. Personally I have no mercy for thieves and could care less if they loose a hand or their life.
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2010 at 12:45am
Originally posted by elijah-boy elijah-boy wrote:

TO EVERYBODY

below (what chrysalis wrote) - is very important part for me as it shows that islam can be reasonable. If you can provide me with the answers to the questions I asked below the it'd appreciated:
--------------------------------------------
":Muslims have been OBLIGATED to behave as peaceful citizens of whatever land they live in, obey their ruler , follow the laws of the land. Unless they are forced to do something by the laws/ruler that goes against their religious beliefs or fundamentally against the principles of Islam. If that happens - then their duty is not to go & revolt and create issues, but find a peaceful solution. If the government still does not listen to them or make allowances - then they should weigh their priorities and MIGRATE someplace which will allow them to live their life according to Islamic Injunctions.

---- That is reasonable. It is basically saying "If you're uncomfortable with the laws of the country you're living in, consider living somewhere else where you can live the life you see as a best fit for yourself. PLEASE point me to:
a. lines in quran that say so
b. if not found in quran please specify where this information comes from.
c. If "a" is not an option but "b" is I would appreciate if you (or somebody else) can guarantee that quran dosen't say otherwise - that infidels should be considered as enemy, their laws should not be respected, and basically they should be killed. '
 
c is a complex question as it assumes in its premise that "if not a then b", then it (your reasonable solution) cannot be true, when there are cases for something to exist from B through further elaboration of a topic that A does not go into.
 
Also, you are over simplifying the issue; an over simplification that does not even exist in secular law. You also want someone to prove a negative which in the case of your request is not possible (given your wording).
 
In times of war, just as with any war even between secular nations, laws of the respective nation are not all respected by one another or necessarily maintained after one side has won and conquered the other. If a Muslim lives in the US and wishes to live under a "state" run shariah system (with Islamic judges per guidlines of Islamic law within the four schools of fiqh), then he should move to one of the many hodge podge of nations cut out of traditional Islamic lands. Creating "fitnah" for the sake of forcing a majority of non believers in a non Muslim land into such a system is not beneficial nor condoned in Islam. The problem I have with trying to create a seperate system in a country like the US for a minority Muslim community is on so many levels.
If a government in a majority of non believers passes laws that force a Muslim to act in such a way that it prevents them from following their faith, then they should move. 
 
The one important aspect of the shariah is that it can be followed in ones household that allows "portability". In other words, for a Muslim to be a believer, one does not have to reside in a Muslim majority country or be attached to some place because the essential acts that make up belief can be completed by the acts that have the home as center point. Making a migration for the sake of God that would better ones religous life is a great thing and is honored, as opposed to moving to non muslim lands and then personally delclaring war on everyone which is anti thetical to Islam.
 
Your question also assumes that small communities or individuals can declare war. A declared war for the sake of Islam can only be done by a state run system with a Caliph which has not existed since the fall of the Ottomans. As I said, the topic is much more complicated then the over simplification of your questions.
 
And no, I see no problem in cutting hands off of thieves (under certain circumstances as prescribed by the shairah). Maybe that is more merciful than getting shot. You would have to ask a thief about that.  
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2010 at 12:56am
Originally posted by elijah-boy elijah-boy wrote:

:TO CHRYSALIS

:Muslims have been OBLIGATED to behave as peaceful citizens of whatever land they live in, obey their ruler , follow the laws of the land. Unless they are forced to do something by the laws/ruler that goes against their religious beliefs or fundamentally against the principles of Islam. If that happens - then their duty is not to go & revolt and create issues, but find a peaceful solution. If the government still does not listen to them or make allowances - then they should weigh their priorities and MIGRATE someplace which will allow them to live their life according to Islamic Injunctions.

---- That is reasonable. It is basically saying "If you're uncomfortable with the laws of the country you're living in, consider living somewhere else where you can live the life you see as a best fit for yourself. PLEASE point me to:
a. lines in quran that say so
b. if not found in quran please specify where this information comes from.
c. If "a" is not an option but "b" is I would appreciate if you (or somebody else) can guarantee that quran dosen't say otherwise - that infidels should be considered as enemy, their laws should not be respected, and basically they should be killed.

:So if Canadian Muslims or British Muslims ask the government to allow their religious law to apply to them - they have a democratic/legal right to do so. Non-Muslims needn't freak out like they are freaking out now. Those laws DON'T apply to non-Muslims. YOUR life will not be effected.

----- I can't take that approach. In the same vein the following can be said. Let all jews live in labour camps, somewhere outside of the visible boundaries - your life won't be affected. [This is actually happened in russia].
 
 
False analogy. A government allowing a court to be established to appeal to a minority group that does not effect the majority has nothing in common with a government that establishes a law that condems a particular group with justification that the majority group is not effected. Creating a law that picks on a group by its very nature does not effect the larger group that created the law. So by all things being equal, I would say that your analogy is too far out in left field to have any meaning in the topic. 
 
Quote
:All the things you mentioned as being part of Shariah are mostly misconceptions, Genital Mutilation is not part of the Shariah Law
---- You are right, I'll leave genital mutilation aside.

:Under Shariah, the judge is supposed to look into the circumstances of the Thief. If the thief was a poor man, who had to steal to provide basics for his family, he will not be given this punishment !!!
--- same thing, I'd appreciate quotes from the sources.

 
 
That is a part of all four legals schools followed in Islam. It is simply a fact. I may be wrong, but I think the largest proof comes from the time of Umar (ra) who used this mode of thought which is also a source for proof for the implementation of the law. There may be an earlier incident, but I know this one incident did occur and is quoted by scholars.
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elijah-boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2010 at 11:27am
ANDALUS:

:The law here in Texas gives the agreived the power also in certain cases.
--- Can you give an example of certain cases?

:I can go further than hand cutting and I am allowed to kill a criminal in the act of the theft.
--- Not sure, are you referring to Texas Laws?

:Personally I have no mercy for thieves and could care less if they loose a hand or their life.
---- Nice. Even if it is an apple on the market stand? What about your family jewel was stolen by a 5 year old, will you kill him as well? (Since you advocate that the aggrieved party has the right to carry out the sentence, then I assume you wouldn't mind carry out the sentence yourself?)

----

Edited by elijah-boy - 13 June 2010 at 12:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elijah-boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2010 at 12:03pm
ANDALUS:

"You also want someone to prove a negative which in the case of your request is not possible (given your wording)"
--- You are right, pretty vague wording.

Let's make it simple and clear then - please specify the source where those lines (mentioned by Chrisalys) can be found.
I want to determine if it is something said in quran, or is it just Chrysalis or your) personal opinion, which is formulated like that: "If a government in a majority of non believers passes laws that force a Muslim to act in such a way that it prevents them from following their faith, then they should move."

:In times of war, just as with any war even between secular nations, laws of the respective nation are not all respected by one another or necessarily maintained after one side has won and conquered the other.
--- Nobody lives under war conditions in US or Canada at present. Let's concentrate on the topic.

:The one important aspect of the shariah is that it can be followed in ones household that allows "portability". In other words, for a Muslim to be a believer, one does not have to reside in a Muslim majority country or be attached to some place because the essential acts that make up belief can be completed by the acts that have the home as center point.
---
a. Do you need to follow sharia laws to consider yourself a believer as defined in quran?
b. Do you have an explanation as to why lots of muslims asked to introduce sharia laws in north america, but no one ever made an effort to traslate a sharia laws into english? (if you have an internet source that list what sharia laws are and lists them in english, please let me know)

: A declared war for the sake of Islam can only be done by a state run system with a Caliph which has not existed since the fall of the Ottomans.
--- Interesting.
a. Does that mean that any personal or group decision to kill some infidel for his transgressions against islam should treated as a punishable crime by islam itself?
b. I'd really appreciate if you specify the source for your statement about the declaration of war. I appreciate your personal opinions, but I also want to determine if it is something said in quran


Edited by elijah-boy - 13 June 2010 at 12:24pm
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